Smith Carbine: Original Load Data?

M

Model12Win

Moderator
Hello all! I am thinking about buying a Smith carbine replica from Pietta. I understand that Dixie Gun Works sells black plastic cases for these rifles that look similar to the originals, but they only hold about 35 grains of powder when topped with a .515" 360 grain bullet, firing the load at about 750 FPS. I remember reading that original Smith carbines used 50 grains of powder, and would fire the same bullet to about 950-1000 FPS.

I am wondering if anyone knows the true load data for original Smith carbine cartridges? If they really did use 50 grains of powder back then, why are today's cases limited to just 35 grains of powder? I'll have to admit that power drop is one reason that I'm hesitant of ordering a Pietta Smith carbine... I would want it to have the same ballistics as an original.

If any Smith carbine shooters are out there, please let me know if you have the answer. Thanks!
 
The original charge was 50 grains with a 360 grain bullet and a rubber cartridge at 1000 FPS altho different suppliers used different bullet weights.
 
I sure wish they'd make the repro cartridges to hold 50 grains. There is a big velocity/energy/recoil loss with the light loads they are limited to.
 
today we have liability issues. Thus the lower powder charges.
That and most moulds today are up in the 400 / 500 gr bullet weights.

Don't bother with the plastic cases, only good limited number of times.
Buy the brass ones, they will last almost forever and they too hold about 35 to 40 gr.

After firing a few times you may find you might have to open the flash hole in the cartridge just a bit. also lay a piece of tissue paper or rolling paper over the hole then the powder. Helps stop the minute dribble and helps keep air at bay.

Also on the square locking lug on top, you will find it helpful to take a small jewelers file and smooth the edges down a bit, makes easier opening.

For me it's a hoot to shoot.
 
Four issues w/ the Pietta Smith (which I've fixed/shoot regularly):

- The locking lug/strap on top comes from the factory extremely tight. I'd take jeweler's rouge to it and a couple hundred rounds before resorting to a file.

- The factory trigger is absolutely atrocious

- The front sight will have to be raised considerably to get POA down to useful range

- The factory nipple has a completely open end (no constriction), and will blow the hammer back on the full-up charges the OP mentions. Replace with a 5/16"x24 closed end when you find one.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That said, David at Lodgwood does/did a SUPERB job on #1-3 above, and I'll get #4 someday when up at the Nationals.

Myself, I shoot 26gr/3Fg and cornmeal filler (1.6cc/1.4cc/LeeDippers) under a Lee .518x366 and/or Accurate's 540C, both at 30:1.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some Bottom Lines:

The LEE .518x360 carbine mold/mild-bevel base (track_wolf) shot exceptionally well
The AccurateMolds 540C (ordered 0.516(+.002"var)/casts 0.517") shoots even better

Problem was... loading that square-base into a smith case by hand was a losing battle -- Big time.

So for the search engines, I offer the 98-cent solution that works w/ great consistency and without effort.
(Note the 1/4" yellow StickyDot from Office Depot on the cartridges flash hole)

f1yvyu.jpg
 
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Anybody chronograph these? I'd be interested to see what 35 grains of a hotter modern sporting powder like Swiss would be capable of. Maybe it could match or come close to the original 1000 FPS even with the neutered powder charge...

I just like my repro guns to be historically accurate when it comes to what loads they can shoot. I know it probably sounds stupid, but this is the equivalent of having an M1 Garand chambered in 7.62x39mm. Same looks and a historic gun, but not as much power as the original. Bad analogy I know, but still.
 
Miller's formula exactly matches my Smith's velocity using a 366gr(30:1) Lee bullet w/ 26g/3Fg/GoEX --> 733fps
(Think I'll have to try some Swiss/3F)

Extrapolate to 35gr --> 833fps
Extrapolate to 42gr --> 903fps

I'm at loss to understand how anyone supposedly got 50 grains into any historical case.
 
Okay so I've read that 30 grains of Swiss 3Fg powder produces 929 FPS. I would think that 35 grains of the same powder, the maximum charge in the plastic Dixie Gun Works cases, would get very close if not match the 1000 FPS of the original loads. This is using the 360 grain bullets of the original Smith design.

Looks like even with today's reduced capacity "target shooter's cases", a hot modern powder like Swiss 3Fg can still get the bullets up to the same velocity as 50 grains of the 19th century rifle powders used in the original loads...
 
Pietta-Smith_Load_Updated

Just ran a "max capacity" exercise w/ the standard black cases from Lodgewood.

Max w/ slight compression: 40gr(2.5cc)/3Fg/GoEX under either the Lee .518x366 and/or the ACC 51-350C
Velocity (Oehler): 971fps

Comment-1: No leading using 2:1 Crisco/Beeswax lube, but at that charge/weight the lube began
exhausting itself about 6-8" from the muzzle (hard fouling)

Comment-2: I replaced Pietta'sOEM (open-ended/re-enactor) nipple with a standard live-fire/
closed-end nipple M8x1.0 TrackWolf MMI-S. After chasing w/ a 8x1.0 die, the MMI-S is a
perfect-fit replacement and no blowback (at all) even at Max load.

.
 
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Just ran a "max capacity" exercise w/ the standard black cases from Lodgewood.

Max w/ slight compression: 40gr(2.5cc)/3Fg/GoEX under either the Lee .518x366 and the ACC 540C
Velocity (Oehler): 971fps

Comment-1: No leading using 2:1 Crisco/Beeswax lube, but at that charge/weight the lube began
exhausting itself about 6-8" from the muzzle (hard fouling)

Comment-2: I replaced Pietta'sOEM (open-ended/re-enactor) nipple with a standard live-fire/
closed-end nipple M8x1.0 TrackWolf MMI-S
After chasing w/ a 8x1.0 die, the MMI-S is a perfect-fit replacement/
Click to expand...

Wow very cool Mehavey. I wonder what it would have been with the original style smith bullets like this:

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=1349&osCsid=fl0rkq04g7402jgu5cmihdbun3

I wonder how much powder one could get in their while still keeping that single grease groove below the case mouth as it should be...
 
I've been a Smith carbine fan for years and almost bought one a time or two, the anemic load put me off.

Anyway, some years back I read an account of post civil war troopies being attacked and wiped out by plains type indians like near the powder river, or Platte... What I noticed in this story was that the troopies carried Smith's. I have looked for this account unsuccessfully for some time now. Have you Smith fans ever heard of this story or something similar? Did the army even issue Smith's after the civil war. Did I imagine this?
 
I've been a Smith carbine fan for years and almost bought one a time or two, the anemic load put me off.
Click to expand...

For me it's not that the load is anemic per say, it's just that today's reproduction cartridge cases hold notably less powder than the originals.

It is for that reason that I am leaning more towards an Enfield musketoon as my first Civil War era carbine. A bit more tedious all around, but I will be able to make my own musket cartridges that will have exactly the same charge and type of powder as what was used back then, as well as an original pattern minie bullet lubed with the original natural lubricant. These will be made on the 1861 pattern of cartridges.

I am going for close historical accuracy for the loads. The Smith carbine today just can't quite get there, sadly.
 
Have you considered a Sharp's?
Click to expand...

Yeah the paper cartridge Sharps are cool, but making the authentic cartridges for them is quite a bit more involved than just standard 1861 pattern .58 cartridges. For me, there really would be no reason to not get a rifled musket at that point. The Enfield carbines are very cool.

As to why I'm leaning towards a carbine, I live in a small apartment and am not a reenactor or skirmisher. I also am a hunter. There really is no practical reason for me to have a 55" long full size rifle musket. A short carbine version would be much more convenient, especially for hunting in the thick brush and out of tree stands.
 
There's nothing wrong w/ a 50 caliber/360gr/soft lead bullet starting at 1,000 fps taking down white
tail within the range of the Smith's open sights.....

-- BUT --

1. You need to replace the Pietta nipple w/ the standard live-fire design (M8x1.0 with chased threads).
2.You need to replace the front sight with a higher one.
3. You need a source of soft lead bullets (30:1 Max) of 0.515-0.517" diameter

Dave and Danielle Stavlo at Lodgewood (who I just spoke w/ up at The Nationals) can help you
with all of that -- including a 1st-class trigger job if you're hooked.

FWIW: I have both a `59 Sharps (Farmingdale, since 1982) and the newer Pietta Smith. The Sharps
was a jewel right out of the box. The Pietta had to be "worked on"

But because of loading & cleaning factors, the Smith gets shot all the time. The Sharps not so much.
Still...... http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5261950&postcount=5
<...sigh...> :rolleyes:

.
 
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Yeah I see what you mean. The Smith is a convenient and attractive way to get into Civil War era rifle shooting. But since I can't really recreate the true original military ballistics, I may look elsewhere for a different option.
 
1866 Cattleman

I would get an Uberti 1866 Revolving Carbine if you are a serious outdoorsman. It is light and easily packable into a large sports bag. The longer barrel pushes a 140 grainer up to 1300fps with a 30 grain charge of Swiss or 777. Essentially similar to a .357 Magnum levergun. That carbine looks like it is almost intended to be a survival rifle, and unlike the .22 survival guns of today, you are getting the stopping power of a big .45 slug. I am about to get one of these and I plan to write a nice detailed article on it after I put some rounds downrange.
 
You can also get machined brass cases that should work in your gun:

http://www.lodgewood.com/Smith-Brass-Cartridge-Case_p_28.html

The original rubber cartridge used in the Smith was far more trouble than it was worth. The war put huge demands on the supply of rubber, making using it for cartridges problematic. Most of the rounds loaded during the Civil War were heavy paper, metal foil, or a combination of the two, plus attempts at using gutta percha.

The problem with the rubber and gutta percha cases is that when it was hot out, or the guns got hot, the cartridges tended to stick in the chambers, making them hard to remove and fouling them badly.
 
"Anyway, some years back I read an account of post civil war troopies being attacked and wiped out by plains type indians like near the powder river, or Platte... What I noticed in this story was that the troopies carried Smith's."

As far as I know, all Smith carbines were withdrawn from service by the end of the war, or very shortly thereafter.

I've never heard of post civil war units being armed with them.
 
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