Smith and Wesson Revolver locking mechanism, whats the big deal?

[Webleymkv]

Also, many people are complaining about the ILS and some have a legitimate problem with it. It is also likely, from some of the posts in this thread, that the ILS is being unjustly blamed for a failure. I do not doubt that claim at all. We also know that S&W won't release its problem numbers to us. It won't release its test data either. What we do know is people are complaining about problems. I have not heard about the ILS on Ruger revolvers engaging (perhaps they have). Why don't we hear about Ruger ILS problems, but we do hear about S&W ILS problems?

Few, if any gun companies are willing to release problem numbers, but even if they did I have no doubt that the bashers would accuse them of dishonesty so it doesn't really matter much. As for the Ruger lock, it's not been implemented as long as the S&W version has and Ruger does not have the lock in all of their revolvers (the only DA revolver they make that currently has it is the LCR). Simply put, Ruger has far fewer lock-equipped revolvers in circulation than S&W does so the number of problems will naturally be lower.

Likewise, the Ruger lock simply hasn't gotten the publicity that the S&W lock has, good or bad, and many Ruger owners are unaware that their gun is even equipped with a lock since its not plainly visible. Out of sight, out of mind if you will.

Finally, most owners of Ruger DA revolvers simply don't seem to be the purists, and thus resistant and resentful of change, that many S&W owners are.

 

[Auto426]

So, again:

Light framed gun + heavy bullet + heavy charge = some chance of ILS engagement.

And yet, there is still no evidence that shows that lightweight magnums are any more prone to lock failures than anything else. You still keep quoting that single unsubstantiated blog post as though it's proof that every single lightweight magnum out there is absolutely going to fail.

Why don't we hear about Ruger ILS problems, but we do hear about S&W ILS problems?

Probably because Ruger chose to put their lock under the grips and out of sight. No one sees it, so no one thinks to **** and moan about it. The same goes for Taurus, theirs is at the base of the hammer. Neither lock is as noticeable as the one on a Smith, and neither lock is complained about nearly as much. Ruger also doesn't seem to have nearly as many die-hard fans who are unwilling to accept change as Smith does.

 

[tomrkba]

While I skipped some of the parts about the Marlin, the only two references I found in that episode to the ILS were at 24:26 and 49:24 and in neither case did Bane say that he was able to make the gun fail on demand. Likewise, I did a search of Bane's blog and could not find any quote saying that he could make the gun lock up on demand.

He did say it was repeatable (outright) in another episode. However, minutes 24 and 49 of episode 253 are enough. Bane has his theory based upon his experience that heavy bullets in the very light frame will cause the ILS failure. He even said that he may film this in action. No more is needed with regard to this section of the topic. (I listened to the whole episode just to see if he says it). It's very clear from his words that his S&W Model 329, with the ILS, could not handle heavy bullets without failure.

He said it works with 275 grain bullets with Hogue tamer grips since he's had it modified. I don't think I could handle 275's in a 26-28 ounce N-frame!

It'll be fun to fool around with the S&W Model 327 and some heavy 357 Magnum. I have not taken the side plate off either.

This should be fun to shoot:
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

 

[Sarge]

As I've stated numberous times in this thread and others, all evidence points to the conclusion that, on the extremely rare occasion that the ILS does cause problems, the root of the problem is a QC issue and not a design flaw.

And of course there are those of us see the ILS as the wholly unnecessary, weak link in an otherwise excellent design. From that perspective, ILS is the design flaw.

I'm betting neither one of us change the others mind, though

 

[Auto426]

Bane has his theory based upon his experience that heavy bullets in the very light frame will cause the ILS failure. He even said that he may film this in action. No more is needed with regard to this section of the topic.

Are you even listening to yourself?

So because this one random person that writes a blog on the internet says it can happen, it's certain to happen in every single gun out there. You've got to have more common sense than that.

 

[Webleymkv]

Quote:
While I skipped some of the parts about the Marlin, the only two references I found in that episode to the ILS were at 24:26 and 49:24 and in neither case did Bane say that he was able to make the gun fail on demand. Likewise, I did a search of Bane's blog and could not find any quote saying that he could make the gun lock up on demand.

He did say it was repeatable (outright) in another episode. However, minutes 24 and 49 of episode 253 are enough. Bane has his theory based upon his experience that heavy bullets in the very light frame will cause the ILS failure. He even said that he may film this in action. No more is needed with regard to this section of the topic. (I listened to the whole episode just to see if he says it). It's very clear from his words that his S&W Model 329, with the ILS, could not handle heavy bullets without failure.

Bane's theory, as explained in the episode you referenced, is that the lock flag "bounces" up into engagement during rapid DA fire with heavy recoiling loads. While I respect Bane, I think his theory is incorrect because, as I've explained the lock flag isn't lined up with the recess in the hammer when the revolver is at full lockup nor during any part of the hammer's rearward travel during a DA trigger stroke. Also, the recoil arc of the gun will, through inertia, push the lock flag down and out of engagement. While Bane's advice about the lock is well meaning (given the other positive things he has to say about S&W, I don't think he's a basher), I think that his theory about the cause of the problem is incorrect.

From the tone of Bane's comments on the matter, it seems likely to me that he had the lock removed shortly after experiencing the problem. As such, I find it very doubtful that he did enough testing to make the lock "fail on demand". Because Bane did not mention being able to repeat the issue in the podcast nor anywhere that I've been able to find on his blog, I must assume that you are mistaken in claiming that he stated this (because you've given me no reason to doubt your credibility, I'll simply give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to an honest mistake). If you can provide a citation of Bane stating that he can make a ILS revolver lockup on demand, then I will review the citation and possibly reconsider your claim, but in lack of such a citation I must dismiss your claim as being mistaken.

 

[tomrkba]

Are you even listening to yourself?

So because this one random person that writes a blog on the internet says it can happen, it's certain to happen in every single gun out there. You've got to have more common sense than that.

Bane is not some random person on the internet.

If you can provide a citation of Bane stating that he can make a ILS revolver lockup on demand, then I will review the citation and possibly reconsider your claim, but in lack of such a citation I must dismiss your claim as being mistaken.

Go through the podcasts starting with 240. They're good fun and you'll come across it eventually.

Yes, he did remove the lock when he had it customized by a gunsmith.

 

[Auto426]

Bane is not some random person on the internet.

He's still one man who experienced a failure with one gun. One gun does not a sample make.

As Webley has repeated pointed out, there was something wrong with the the 329 Bane was using because the lock flag was popping up at times when it shouldn't be able to. Everything points to him having a broken gun. If I were to stop using every gun that I hear someone report a breakage with, I wouldn't have anything left to shoot.

 

[Webleymkv]

Quote:
If you can provide a citation of Bane stating that he can make a ILS revolver lockup on demand, then I will review the citation and possibly reconsider your claim, but in lack of such a citation I must dismiss your claim as being mistaken.

Go through the podcasts starting with 240. They're good fun and you'll come across it eventually.

Again, the burden of proof to support your claim rests upon you and not me. If you cannot be troubled to go through the podcasts to find reference to the statement, then why should I?

 

[gyvel]

Sounds like a whole lot of argumentum ad pufferium.

 

[tomrkba]

He's still one man who experienced a failure with one gun. One gun does not a sample make.

As Webley has repeated pointed out, there was something wrong with the the 329 Bane was using because the lock flag was popping up at times when it shouldn't be able to. Everything points to him having a broken gun. If I were to stop using every gun that I hear someone report a breakage with, I wouldn't have anything left to shoot.

I take it you examined his 329 and determined it had a broken part? Nope, you didn't. So now you're just denying there could be a problem. That's your opinion. All you have is what you think is happening. Either way, people are reporting these problems (justified or not).

Sounds like a whole lot of argumentum ad pufferium.

You're taking this too seriously. We're having fun. It's like at the bar: everyone's drinking and the topic happens to be the one of the moment. I could care less about the lock. My disappointment with S&W is because I wanted to buy a 640 with night sights, but the barrel was visibly canted.

My Model 327 gun works and my 44 Magnum is a Ruger Alaskan. I'm going to get some heavy loads from Buffalo Bore and shoot them one at a time to try to get the 327's lock to fail. I doubt anything will happen except that a couple of guys at the range will want to shoot it because of the huge boom.

Again, the burden of proof to support your claim rests upon you and not me. If you cannot be troubled to go through the podcasts to find reference to the statement, then why should I?

You should listen to the podcasts because they're good. He brings up some interesting tactical scenarios. You'll learn about a whole bunch of guns he saw at SHOT Show. He has some fun cowboy guns on the way. And so on.

 

[Auto426]

I take it you examined his 329 and determined it had a broken part? Nope, you didn't.

The very same could be said of you. Did you personally examine his 329, and determine that beyond a shadow of a doubt the ILS is what caused the gun to fail?

So now you're just denying there could be a problem.

I haven't denied anywhere in any of my posts that the lock can fail. The ILS is a mechanical device and as such it is subject to failure. I do have a problem with your claim that auto-locking of lightweight magnums is as common as you say it is.

All I've done is ask you to provide some sort of evidence to support your claim of lightweight S&W revolvers repeatedly and reliably locking themselves, which so far has been meet with nothing other than a claim to a blog post or pod cast that has yet to actually turn up.

All you have is what you think is happening.

I have nothing? What about the couple million S&W revolvers out there with locks that don't lock themselves up on a regular basis. All you have is a single podcast with one person talking about a single gun, and you have yet to actually provide a link to it.