Smith and Wesson Revolver locking mechanism, whats the big deal?

For me, it boils down to the tertiary reason I own guns; value. Hopefully I never run into a situation where I would need money fast, but if I do, I know that I can walk into any gun show and sell an S&W without the lock right away for fair market value. Does the lock affect the guns in any mechanical way? I have no idea, and really don't care, but they do lower resale value and that is an important considerations when buying.

To summarize; please keep talking about the "S&W Revolver Lock Issue", it makes me feel better about my buying choices :p
 
This subject has become a favorite perennial topic, especially among folks who like to denigrate the company.

While I tend to prefer the revolvers without the ILS (internal locking system), myself, I did buy one with the ILS. It was the M&P 340 when it was first released.

I later bought the latest variation of the M&P 340, made without the ILS, as well.

The funny thing? I shoot and carry the earlier model with the ILS more than I do the newer one without the ILS. Go figure.

As a S&W revolver armorer, I've not experienced any problems with the ILS in my won new style revolver, nor have I met another owner/shooter who has experienced an actual confirmed ILS problem in theirs, or talked with another armorer who has experienced a personal or owner/user ILS problem.

That doesn't mean it can't or won't happen at some point, of course. Things can happen with machinery. Wear, damage or even an unrecognized defective part can cause problems at one time or another.

I know quite a number of guys who are carrying the new style J-frames made with the ILS, and they shoot them, too.

I've discussed this topic with a number of different folks at the company. I've arrived at my own opinion.

I've posted enough of my own experiences and thoughts on this subject in numerous previous thread topics, and I just don't feel like going back over all it yet again, so I'll leave it at that ...
 
The lock is poorly designed. Significant vibration from recoil will cause the flag to partially pop up and lock the hammer. This event is repeatable with light revolvers firing heavy loads (such as the example of the 325PD above). It will likely never be an issue in steel framed guns shooting common loads. I have not seen any article describing a lock failure in a steel framed big bore revolver firing very heavy bullets. I have had no issue firing common self-defense loads in my 625 or 327. I could probably induce it by reloading for it, but I see no point since I don't shoot such loads anyway.

I think the lock is ugly, but my complaint with it is the poor design. It seems to exist only because S&W's parent company needs a customer.
 
The lock is a tempest in a teapot on internet fora. The number of actual, documented cases of it causing problems is so small that it is statistically insignificant. After pulling the sideplate on my own IL-equipped revolver (a 629-6) and examining exactly how it functions, I've come to the conclusion that the few instances of revolvers "auto locking" are cases of QC problems rather than faulty design.

Unfortunately, the combination of unverifiable "auto locks" being reported by anonymous internet posters whose honesty and expertise is completely unknown along with the effects of the "internet echo chamber" as another poster on this forum once called it (I really wish I could remember who coined that term so I could give it proper credit) blows the subject out of all proportion to its actual significance.

Compounding the issue, you have the S&W bashers who never seem to miss an opportunity to run down the company and decry all of its products made after a certain arbitrary date (this date varies from basher to basher). These people are the sort who frequently interject their unsolicited criticism of S&W into any discussion of the company, regardless of the particular subject matter, and frequently use childish invectives like "Safety Wesson," "Smith and Clinton," or "Hillary Hole." Bashers seem to relish the opportunity to jump onto a report of "auto lock", regardless of whether that report can be verified or not, like a pack of hungry dogs on a three-legged cat.

If someone doesn't like the lock (or any other feature for that matter) because of aesthetics or politics, it's a matter of personal preference and that's fine so long as that person is up front about his/her motivations. However, when someone tries to justify their own personal preferences by exaggerating, or outright fabricating, quality and reliability issues, that person is doing no one any good and his/her comments should be viewed with a healthy dose of skepticism from that point forward.
 
To me ....( and I have about 20 or so S&W revolvers ) ....the locks are stictly an aesthetic issue....

But since I sort of collect....the S&W's in the calibers I like / and the engineering dash numbers I prefer ( like a dash 2 on the model 27's and 29's) and I can still hopefully find the one gun I would like - in the mix ...I buy, what I like....with no locks.

If I couldn't find the guns I wanted ...pre-lock ....I might buy a current model.../ but so far, I have not ..

but for me, its a model specific issue ....
a. mod 18's in .22 lr ....and a mod 617 ...in .22 lr
b. mod 19's, 27's, 28's ....in .357 mag / and mod 66's, 686's in .357 mag
c. mod 29's ...and mod 629's in .44 mag

and I collect and shoot what I like in those models in 2 1/2", a few 3", 4", a few 6" and a few in 8 3/8" barrels....and in a variety of finishes ...a few are blued, Nickel finish is what I like the best ...and stainless ( in 617, 66, 686 & 629's)...but I have almost everything I want in the 20 or so guns in my mix right now ( and I enjoy shooting each and every one of them )...

the only thing I really want ...is a Nickel model 18 ....( I have a blued one ). But a Nickel mod 18 would be special !! ...but it has to be pre-lock.

When I add duplicates...they have to be engineering mod specific...and very, very clean...so I can put them away ( and not shoot them too much ) for one of the boys or grandkids down the road...
 
I don't own a S&W, but there is the same/similar issue with Ruger.... Anyway the 'big deal' is simply 'lock not needed' and 'just another component that has potential to fail'. Those are my issues with the lock (Ruger or S&W or ... Brand X). Don't want 'em, don't need 'em. External locks make a lot more sense because I can toss them away and forget about them.
 
I have a J frame .38spcl with the lock on it. I unlocked the gun and threw the key away. (I'm lousy at keeping track of little things like that). If the lock ever does lock itself, I'm in trouble because I have no key! :(
 
Skidder,

Maybe I am not up on current means of conveying ideas "on the web" but I don't like being threatened by someone because I expressed an opinion contradictory to his.

Sorry, but I don't think people who make death threats are included in your "loyal, patriotic, generous, kind, men of integrity, character, solid individuals, who have revered, respected, and admired these fine weapons for many generations."

I think they are loonies, even if they are, or claim to be, members of the gun community. I would like to think they are imposters from the gun control side (many of whom are also completely crazy and violent), but I doubt it.

(And, FWIW, S&W has made a minor modification to the lock to prevent lockup from recoil, a problem they said didn't happen.)

Jim
 
Unfortunately, the combination of unverifiable "auto locks" being reported by anonymous internet posters whose honesty and expertise is completely unknown along with the effects of the "internet echo chamber" as another poster on this forum once called it (I really wish I could remember who coined that term so I could give it proper credit) blows the subject out of all proportion to its actual significance.

The lock issue is repeatable with a light framed gun firing heavy loads. The lock will not engage if you are firing common factory ammunition with lighter bullet weights in a regular weight gun.

I do agree with you that the statistical incidence of failures with circumstances other than the above are very small.

I just wish S&W would improve their QC. I bought a Ruger over an S&W 640 Pro because the 640's barrel was canted. I think that a $749 gun should be built properly and such errors need to be caught at the factory. I have one of their 327's and it's a great gun, even with the lock. It's very fast shooting with 125 grain JHP. I recommend it, even if it looks goofy because of the rails.
 
James K-- To agree with these people (loonies) on this issue does not make you one of them, or put you in danger of spiraling into violent lunacy.
 
(And, FWIW, S&W has made a minor modification to the lock to prevent lockup from recoil, a problem they said didn't happen.)

Jim

Jim,

Do you have a link to an article that explains the technical details of the change?

Thanks!!
 
The lock issue is repeatable with a light framed gun firing heavy loads. The lock will not engage if you are firing common factory ammunition with lighter bullet weights in a regular weight gun.

Do you have an article that contains a documented test which shows a lightweight S&W revolver repeatedly and reliably locking itself using magnum loads? My guess is you don't.

My feeling on the issue is that S&W revolvers were "locking" themselves up long before there was a lock hole in the sideplate. Internal action parts can break and tie up the gun, no locking mechanism needed. In fact I'm certain that many of the reported lock failures are wrong attributed. When someone reports a problem with a S&W revolver the first thing people always mention is the lock, even though there's plenty of things that can break and tie the gun up.

I personally would rather my guns without the lock, but that's just an aesthetics issue for me. I also wish S&W would still stamp and roll mark the numbers and logos on the gun, because the laser etching has a tendency to rub off if you polish the gun. I for one have chose. Not to deprive myself of their fine products over such a small issue.
 
When someone reports a problem with a S&W revolver the first thing people always mention is the lock, even though there's plenty of things that can break and tie the gun up.
If the ejector rod comes unscrewed, it can lock up the gun. I've seen this blamed on the lock several times.

If a round has an inadequate powder charge, the bullet can get stuck between the cylinder face and forcing cone, locking the gun up. I've seen this blamed on the lock.

If somebody makes a habit of constantly "slapping" the cylinder shut, the ejector rod and crane can get bent, locking up the gun. Guess what I've seen blamed for that?

Yep. On the other hand, I have seen older Smiths lock up. One of the most common causes was the old trigger stop design, which was later removed for a tendency to lock up the gun.
 
Do you have an article that contains a documented test which shows a lightweight S&W revolver repeatedly and reliably locking itself using magnum loads? My guess is you don't.

Stop getting all defensive. Someone stated S&W changed the lock design. If so, great. You really need to calm down. It's just a product with a poorly designed subsystem that can be easily removed. THE PLUG is available on the S&W Forum with instructions on how to replace the lock. Any bashing that I'm doing on S&W is about poor QC on recent guns coming from the factory and some poor design decisions. I find it annoying that I was going to buy a 640 with night sights and didn't because of the obvious defects. The gun had better be near perfect for $749.

Micheal Bane (does Shooting Gallery, Best Defense, etc) has been reporting it in his podcast for about six months now. He is extremely careful with what he says as an industry insider. This is not a man who would repeatedly say something like that if he could not repeat it on demand. I think the details were something like a 329PD shooting 240 grain bullets over a full charge will cause the lock to engage. He stated he can do it on demand.

I haven't been able to induce it in my S&W Model 327 TRR8 (and never claimed it did). I have no issues with it and have left the lock in because it's not a problem. If it were a problem, I'd replace it with THE PLUG. My 625 never had a lock related problem either (though dry firing without AZoom Snap-Caps caused the firing pin to break--again, poor design or poor execution).

Clarification regarding language used in a few posts:

The lock is not a safety.

The lock is a storage device. It is not part of the normal firing sequence.
 
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If the ejector rod comes unscrewed, it can lock up the gun. I've seen this blamed on the lock several times.

If a round has an inadequate powder charge, the bullet can get stuck between the cylinder face and forcing cone, locking the gun up. I've seen this blamed on the lock.

If somebody makes a habit of constantly "slapping" the cylinder shut, the ejector rod and crane can get bent, locking up the gun. Guess what I've seen blamed for that?

Yep. On the other hand, I have seen older Smiths lock up. One of the most common causes was the old trigger stop design, which was later removed for a tendency to lock up the gun.

These are already known issues with revolvers in general. Blaming them on the lock is like telling Toyota their car broke down because it ran out of gas. The reporter just looks stupid and Toyota will take no action.
 
The S&W apologists often quote "high primers", "backed out ejector rods" and other easily avoidable potential issues as reasons that older revolvers are "no more reliable" than the current crop of wind up guns.

In forty-four years of being issued, buying and shooting pre lock S&W revolvers, I've yet to have one fail to go bang. I doubt my experience is the exception but rather the rule.

If you want to buy the wind up, overpriced, ugly design, cost cutting measures revolvers and prop up the current company calling itself S&W, be my guest.

I will be happy with the fine S&W revolvers made prior to 2001. Regards 18DAI
 
Originally posted by tomrkba
Quote:
Unfortunately, the combination of unverifiable "auto locks" being reported by anonymous internet posters whose honesty and expertise is completely unknown along with the effects of the "internet echo chamber" as another poster on this forum once called it (I really wish I could remember who coined that term so I could give it proper credit) blows the subject out of all proportion to its actual significance.

The lock issue is repeatable with a light framed gun firing heavy loads. The lock will not engage if you are firing common factory ammunition with lighter bullet weights in a regular weight gun.

I fail to see how it could. The lock is actually a fairly simple mechanism. When the key is turned, the lock "flag" is rotated up and back into engagement. The lock "flag" has a small stud on the inside surface that moves into a recess in the hammer thus preventing its movement and locking the action. When the action is at full lockup, with the hammer fully forward and in contact with the firing pin as it would be when the revolver is fired, or when the hammer is cocked the stud is not aligned with the recess in the hammer and thus the lock cannot be engaged.

Additionally, the lock flag rotates up and back against spring pressure to engage. Given that the recoil arc of the revolver will also be up and back, the lock "flag" will be forced in the opposite direction, down and forward, and out of engagement by inertia during recoil.

I maintain my position that the only reasons for the lock to engage itself are defective (broken) parts or improper installation as, by design, it cannot spontaneously engage in a revolver that's "in spec". It does make sense, however, that the issue would be somewhat more common on lightweight revolvers since any defective or improperly installed parts, including the lock, are going to take more of a battering in a lightweight gun and thus any pre-existing QC problems will be exacerbated.

Originally posted by Tom Servo
Quote:
When someone reports a problem with a S&W revolver the first thing people always mention is the lock, even though there's plenty of things that can break and tie the gun up.

If the ejector rod comes unscrewed, it can lock up the gun. I've seen this blamed on the lock several times.

I also notice that a good number of the reported "auto locks" are in guns with shrouded or fully concealed hammers, particularly the 340PD. In these guns, the lock "flag" is not visible from the outside of the gun even when it is engaged and thus it would be necessary to pull the sideplate of the revolver to verify that it is indeed the lock and not one of the many other small parts that cause a revolver of this type to lock up. This is one of the many problems of relying primarily, if not solely, on reports of anonymous internet forum posts, the knowledge level of the poster is unknown and cannot be verified.
 
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Digging around:

Bane details his first lock failure:
http://michaelbane.blogspot.com/2007/08/s-revolver-safety-failure.html

Clearly there are more factors at work than the ones mentioned by Webleymkv.


I am going to see if I can get my 327 to lock up. This will be a fun project since it involves shooting and lots of recoil. I'll need to find some hot 357 Magnum rounds :) Don't worry, this will be safe since I'll only load one round into the cylinder at a time.
 
Clearly there are more factors at work than the ones mentioned by Webleymkv.

No, not really. The fact that Bane was not able to easily unlock the revolver with the supplied keys and the fact that the "flag" was able to come up when the hammer was not at rest is indicative that something was amiss internally, most likely a part had broken or come loose from where it was supposed to be. If the lock were functioning as designed and as I described in my previous post, Bane should have been able to unlock it with a simple turn of the key and the "flag" would not have been able to come up with the hammer back. Likewise, in the account he describes from Massad Ayoob, the revolver had it's lock "flag" come completely out of the gun, something it is not designed to do and clearly an example of defective or improperly fitted parts.
 
Also, something I heard mentioned by someone in customer service, and a revolver repair tech ... and then observed for myself during the revolver armorer class ... is that if someone opens the gun and fools around inside, it's possible to unintentionally dislodge the short leg of the locking arm's torque lock spring. The locking arm wouldn't be held downward under tension after that happened.

The bottom leg of the spring is held under a small recessed shelf in the machined groove in which the bolt sits & moves. I noticed in the class that if the hammer were removed (so essentially nothing was holding the locking arm against the left side of the frame), and then the frame were tipped the wrong way, the weight of the locking arm could pull it away from the frame, which could dislodge the bottom leg of the spring from its recessed shelf. (Not something that I could get to happen when the hammer was in its normal position.)

I've heard it speculated by folks at the company that they've sometimes wondered if some of the revolvers they received for warranty complaints about the ILS might have been opened by the owners, and the proper positioning of the locking arm adversely (albeit unintentionally) affected and compromised.

Of course, I was also told that most of the warranty claims for revolvers with "lock problems" that caused the guns to "seize up", had actually been problems involving something else (hammer sear fit & clearance, for example, although upwards of 90% of the new style MIM sears are able to drop-in and work in the new guns).

One of the folks with whom I'd discussed this subject some years ago acknowledged that the company had also looked to any potential production/assembly QC issues when the locking arms were being installed, to make sure their revolver production cell workers were putting them together properly.

As an armorer, installing the torque lock spring in the locking arm is a bit of a pain. It's really, really small. I use reading glasses AND my magnifying bench lamp. I've generally only done it for practice a few times, except for once in a J-frame. In that case I felt the spring tension was lighter than I liked, even though the gun hadn't had any unintentional ILS engagement during shooting (by the cop who carried it as a secondary & off-duty weapon). I installed a new (revised) spring and the tension was then similar to all the other J-frames I'd owned and inspected.

FWIW, during the armorer class the subject of the ILS was covered rather briefly. We disassembled and inspected the guns, including the locking arms, and they had us replace the spring in a locking arm (but we were told to leave the rest of the frame-mounted ILS parts alone). The instructor said that he'd not yet had any agency armorers report functioning problems with the ILS in guns being used by LE (meaning mostly J-frames, since they're very popular for LE users).

Also, when I asked around the class I couldn't find any armorers who had experienced, or had reported to them, problems with the ILS. There were some older armorers (in my age group) who didn't necessarily "like" the added 5 parts making up the ILS (or the frame hole), but they didn't have any complaints with the actual functioning & operation in working guns.
 
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