Slow and heavy or fast and light: requesting definite answer

M

Maromero

Moderator
This topic has been boarded plenty of times in this and other forums but I have never encountered a definite answer. Spare the shot placement is king discourse, what is more incapacitating? A heavy and slow bullet or a fast and light one? Seems there should be someone with the scientific expertise to answer this question.

P.S. Sometimes arguing over this topic it seems like debating which is stronger, the unmovable object or the unstoppable force.
 
There is no definite answer. Incapacitation and/or death is not an exact science with animal life forms. There have been people killed with a good hit with a feather pillow, and others that have walked away with 6 .44mag slugs having passed through them. People 1-shot stopped with a .22rf and others that survived a 500lb bomb that landed a few feet from them.

Just pick one or the other, or both, and be happy.
 
I think there hasnt been a definitive answer because there are so many variables. Caliber, bullet weight, bullet construction all play into what is the optimal velocity. You need to have a bullet that will penetrate enough to reach vital areas and hold together relatively well while it does it. How you get there is up to you.
 
Either can work, if they're good specimens of the type.

Seriously. You can find "slow and heavy" rounds that don't expand worth a dang, you can find "light and fast" that either don't expand or they're TOO "light and fast" and fall apart four inches in.

Here's an extreme example of two rounds with similar stopping power:

* Buffalo Bore 125gr full-house 357Magnum, Gold Dot hollowpoint, doing about 1,600fps, 750 or so ft/lbs energy.

* Speer 250gr Gold Dot 45LC hollowpoint, doing 950ish fps, 500ft/lbs energy.

Obviously, they get there in different ways.

The 45 gets there with less total energy, a LOT less noise (subsonic round) and in some ways more controllable.

The 357 can be shot out of a more compact gun though, and likely one that holds one or two more bullets if it's the same size as a 45 wheelgun.

These are among the two best personal defense loads around, and they couldn't be more different in terms of how they get there.
 
The definitive answer is that loss of blood is what decides most gunfights. Slow and heavy or fast and light through the brain is a pointless piece of data.

No matter what you shoot, every wound is different. One time, slow and heavy will cause the most bleeding, the next time, it may be fast and light.

A key that many people miss is that no matter what you are firing, you're really only releasing about as much energy as a hit from a big hammer. It ALL depends on that wound and blood loss.

I'd like to point out that even when you compare the 30-06 to the .454 casull, there are arguments, and the evidence is inconclusive. When you discuss the comparatively tiny amounts of energy and damage done by a .22 hornet or a 9mm, do you really expect to get a solid answer?

I firmly believe that bullet performance is more important than anything, and by that, I mean, will the bullet create a long wound channel, and still give a good stretch cavity to cause secondary bruising and hemorhaging.
 
Meaning of life, requesting definite answer.

The definitive answer is that loss of blood is what decides most gunfights
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Meh I would like to see the data on that. Bleeding out, even with a decent artery severed takes a minute or so. You can do a lot of shooting in one minute.
 
In order for me to give a definate answer your going to have to nail down all the variables I need to know the exact path of the bullet through the target and any obstructions that it might encounter en route to the target.
I need to know if bones are going to be hit and if so which ones and at what angles.I need to know which organs will be hit as they have different composition.
If you can let me know exacticly how your gunfight will happen I'll tell you exacticly what gun/ammo combo will work best. otherwise I'm just guessing LOL
 
Yep no 'real' solution. I tend to lean towards big and slow, if you can call 900 fps slow. Reason: the use of 45 caliber bullets by our military (and law enforcement) for many years... Colt Single Action Army in 45 Colt and Colt 1911 in 45 ACP... there weren't many complaints about these weapons and calibers. I presently own a Colt 1911.

However, given that...

I also own a S&W .357... hope that helps! LOL
 
The definite answer is...

Drumroll....

It depends.

What do you expect from your bullet? Incapacitating of...what? Humans? How big are they, and how much clothing are they wearing?

In the end, and all else being equal, the slow heavy bullet is a better penetrator. It will penetrate reliably in a variety of circumstances, usually without much expansion.

Loaded and used correctly, and with proper penetration, the light fast bullet MAY be a faster incapacitator. It also is the one that will have the most varied performance on various targets, and is the most likely of the two to not perform as expected IMO. From a handgun, one time it'll expand nicely, the next maybe not at all.

In big bore handguns intended for big critters, I like a heavy bullet pushed at 1100-1300 fps. In smaller handguns (up to about .357 mag or .40 S&W performance levels), I like a medium weight bullet pushed as fast as I can safely and accurately push it.

So, "it depends".

Daryl
 
What about heavy and fast? Go 10mm in an auto or .44Mag in a wheelgun and call it good. ;)



You demand closure and acknowledge the prior absence thereof in the same OP. Good luck.

There's empirical evidence that both routes you mentioned have been successful by the millions.
 
Let's see . . . a big bullet, by virtue of its making a big hole, is more likely to hit/break/cut something than a smaller bullet fired through the same entry point. A heavy bullet, even at moderate velocity, will penetrate adequately if it gets to the target. If it penetrates all the way through (the dreaded "over" penetration), you'll have two leaks rather than one, per hit. So, I can't see any downside to a big, heavy, bullet that penetrates lots.
 
Evan Marshall's stats show the .357 Magnum using 125 semi-jacketed hollow points at around 1500 fps (factory Remington) are the best one shot stoppers.
 
Too many variables in shootings to really scientifically compare different cartridges and bullet combos. As Jim March mentioned, there are several ways to get an effective SD handgun cartridge.

Marshall and Sanow data has flaws, and is not the end all of one shot stopping power data...

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

For those that think that only a big ( .45 cal bullet ) will always work when a small ( .355- .357 cal bullet ) will always miss a vital body part MUST be much better shots than I....to be able to place a bullet within .1" of where you intend it to go under stress...>LOL...
 
42

it's the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything.

what caliber do you need? 42
.45 is the closest I have

how many rounds to center of mass to ensure stoppage of a threat? 42
I've got 10+1 in the gun, and an extra 10 in the spare mag, half way there...

while the answer to the ultimate question of life the universe and everything is 42, the specific question is still up in the air.

so there's your definitive answer, but I wish I knew what the question was.

:D

I'm sorry, there really is no definitive answer other than service calibers will do, but it will always be better to have a rifle. If only we could carry those around with us on a daily basis.

also I couldn't resist the Douglas Adams reference.
 
If it penetrates all the way through (the dreaded "over" penetration), you'll have two leaks rather than one, per hit.
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I see this theory pop up from time to time; but I don't think it has much basis in reality. If 200lb mammals were big balloons full of blood, you'd have a point - a hole in both sides would empty faster than a hole in one side.

However, human beings are composed of all kinds of different tissue. A bullet that hits the heart and causes massive internal bleeding is going to incapacitate faster than a bullet that passes through the stomach but penetrates both sides. To give you another example, if someone is shot from the front with a .45 JHP and it makes an 8" wound track that penetrates the heart and stops underneath the skin on the opposite side, will they bleed any less than a person who is shot from the front with a .45JHP that penetrates the heart and continues all the way through? The same internal structures have been damaged in both cases. The only difference is whether the blood is flowing into the body cavity or out the exit wound. There isn't any extra or faster bleeding just because the bullet overpenetrated.
 
Quote:
If it penetrates all the way through (the dreaded "over" penetration), you'll have two leaks rather than one, per hit.

I see this theory pop up from time to time; but I don't think it has much basis in reality. If 200lb mammals were big balloons full of blood, you'd have a point - a hole in both sides would empty faster than a hole in one side.

However, human beings are composed of all kinds of different tissue. A bullet that hits the heart and causes massive internal bleeding is going to incapacitate faster than a bullet that passes through the stomach but penetrates both sides. To give you another example, if someone is shot from the front with a .45 JHP and it makes an 8" wound track that penetrates the heart and stops underneath the skin on the opposite side, will they bleed any less than a person who is shot from the front with a .45JHP that penetrates the heart and continues all the way through? The same internal structures have been damaged in both cases. The only difference is whether the blood is flowing into the body cavity or out the exit wound. There isn't any extra or faster bleeding just because the bullet overpenetrated.
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If you hit key internal plumbing and structures, you're right. I don't know that if I'm in a fight for my life, that I will actually have a choice as to which part of the body is presented for perforation; shout, "Show me your heart?" Obviously, a heart shot is preferable to a through-and-through to the arm, but if all I have available is an arm?
 
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