Slide Stop Assault and Battery
- Thread starter rc
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
According to Wolff, the factory recoil spring for a 4" Kimber should be 22 pounds. 15 pounds is less than the usual factory taing for a 5" 1911.rc said:
Walt Sherrill
New member
gyvel said:
I don't have a reason to dispute what you've seen, and I didn't get into handguns until the late 90's -- only 20 years of exposure. I also didn't didn't pay attention to this topic until much later. But, but in the few cases with which I have direct knowledge included my own high-mileage (S&W 3rd Gen) alloy framed 669. It was replaced by S&W, even though I was not the original owner. (S&W seemed almost embarrassed by the cracks.) That gun had been worked on by George Stringer, a gunsmith who was a regular here on TFL years ago until bad health forced him into retirement. S&W replaced the frame, but also replaced the nicely improved/polished internals, too. All of George's craftsmanship was replaced.
I may be that part of the reason you've seen more frame failures than slide failures may be that gun designers pay more attention to slides than frames -- particularly when they start to move up in calibers. In Glocks, the main difference between the Glock 19* (9mm), 23*(.40), 32(357 SIG), and the 38 (.45 GAP) is the slide -- the frames can be interchanged with minor parts swap. These guns all seem to use the same recoil spring!
I've seen or heard of a few damaged slides, too: the US military Beretta M9s had a bout with that around the time of Operation Desert Storm, and one Marine I later worked with had that experience, and said they did some stress relieving cuts until a better fix was found. I personally know of two true P-38 (not P-01s) with slides that cracked during use. Tanfoglio (actually WITNESS/EAA) had a number of steel slide failures some years back with their .45s and 10 guns. (EAA claimed no responsibility, but Tanfoglio later redesigned the slides and the problem seems to have go away.) A number of Witness owners, some here and on The High Road, swore off of Witnesses after that debacle.
I've heard and seen a few cracked frames, too, but some of those, in the case of 1911s and Tanfoglios/Witness guns, were cracks that didn't really affect function (and were either self-limiting or could be stopped by a stress-relieving cuts or drilled holes in the frame). Some of those models now come from the factory with stress-relieving cuts in the frame in the problem areas. (The area around the slide release seems to be a problem with some of the Tanfoglio guns, but since the stress cut is under the grips, few notice them. (But when they do, they will post here asking about the "cracks" in their gun frames!)
As for alloy frames: CZ has been using alloy frames in some of their compacts for years, and I've yet to hear of an alloy CZ frame failure. (Such failures may occur, but they don't seem to be common.) I did hear of two steel-frame CZ failures when I was a moderator on the CZ forum; they were cracks around the slide stop pin openings on a CZ-85. That might make someone think alloy CZ frames hold up better than CZ steel frames, but I wouldn't make that claim. I also haven't heard much about SIGARMS frame failures, either. Post of the P-2xx SIGs had alloy frames.
My comments are based on MY admittedly limited experience, and others, like you, may have had quite different experiences.
*Got that wrong, and corrected -- I originally keyed 17, 19, when I meant to indicate all of the compact frames: 19, 23, 32, and 38 -- I've owned all but the 32. Still have a 38.
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I ran into this on a Glock 24 more than a decade ago. .40 is s snappy round, right? Not really.
The 24 came with a 16 or 17 pound spring, the same spring as used in a 17. Yes, the 24 out of the box had a snappy recoil...until I installed a 24 pound recoil spring. Even with the very light polymer receiver and relatively much heavier slide, the recoil became tame.
Over the course of years of weekly shooting in that configuration, I observed no malfunctions* or broken components.
______________
* I had one CCI aluminum case that was missing part of the side of the case and had a bullet that would not chamber.
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Hunter Customs
New member
Good point Walt.
However the frame is actually the softest part ( RC 24-28) involved when stopping the forward momentum of the slide going to battery.
It should show damage before the slide stop pin does as it's a harder part (RC 50-56).
If I remember correctly the Army tech manual suggested peening the slide stop hole to displace enough metal to tighten the fit around the slide stop pin when the frame was damaged from forward battering.
Personally I feel there's better ways to achieve the tightening of the hole, I believe the ARMY's suggestion was for company armorers doing a quick fix.
However anyone that believes there's not cause for concern from forward battering caused by over springing their gun, the only thing I can say is you are ill advised.
For those that want to over spring their guns go ahead it's your gun, mine run just fine without having to do that.
Best Regards
Bob Hunter
polyphemus
New member
The way to know the spring weight is to measure it with a gauge.If you have a standard pistol then it should be about 16Lb.No more is necessary since its only
purpose is to return the slide to battery.
Again,standard loads and non modified pistols do not require heavy reaction springs,under normal use 1911's will last a lifetime,a user then would not notice
anything unusual should the spring be below that figure.This thread is about a
1911 variant with "hot loads" op probably needs to try several weight springs to
find a balance.
So, whether a pistol is over or under sprung does not reflect a set value, but the use to which an individual is putting it.
A 1911 will function with a 9 pound spring; people do run them that way though I would consider that under sprung. Intuitively, this looks like a matter of balance.
After I broke my 2nd locking block on a Beretta 92, I replaced the recoil spring with some kind of dual weight captive arrangement from a company called Spring Co.iirc. It was difficult to get the slide back the last bit to rack the 1st round, but the pistol became much more accurate. I believe the stock spring may have been so light that the pistol was unlocking prematurely.
It also seems unlikely that a Glock 9mm and a Glock .40 should have precisely the same recoil spring. That doesn't mean that the 40 caliber will not function, just that the weight may not be optimal.
polyphemus
New member
Ordnance specs for the M1911 reaction spring are given in number of coils and
wire size,this is less than 16Lb.and those pistols function just fine.
It was my understanding that this thread was about a 1911 variant,other type pistols may have different actions and that would be external to op's inquiry.
Walt Sherrill
New member
Hunter Custom said:
I think we agree on most points in your response. I would say, however, that just because a part is HARDER doesn't mean it won't damage more easily or break more easily than some softer parts. Some materials are more resilient than others. Try to bend the top or bottom tab of a CZ mag brake, and it will likely break (been there, done that); the same type of damage might occur if you try to bend mag feed lips a bit too far. The metal in those applications is almost brittle.
Over the years, I've heard tales of CZ-pattern guns breaking slide stops but almost no tales of damaged frames. (Back in the day, some of the guys who shot USPSA and IPSC using Tanfoglio or Witness guns said they broke slide stops about every 5K rounds.) A frame made from softer metal may have show wear, but it might not break -- or the wear might not be obvious to the naked eye. Stress fractures in steel frames don't typically come with warnings, either. The much harder (than the frame) slide stop only has two options because of its hardness: continue to function as designed, or break.
If one side of the frame metal supporting the CZ-pattern slide stop gives (wears) just a tiny little bit, the slide stop won't be aligned properly, and ugly things can happen. The one time I STUIPIDLY broke a slide stop in a CZ was when I was trying different slides on different CZ frames, and mistakenly put a 85 Combat slide stop into a Compact frame. The 85 Combat has an ambidextrous slide stop, and if the far end of the piece, where it's supposed to slip into a special fitting on the 85 frame isn't supported properly, it'll break easily. Mine broke with the first shot. Couldn't claim a warranty repair, either...
Why did it break? If the CZ slide stop isn't properly aligned with the barrel lug and frame as the barrel travels back and forth with the slide, the barrel lug will hit the stop at an angle and that will put the full force of the barrel and slide as it closes into a much smaller area on the slide stop pin -- rather than spreading the transfer of force over a wider area. Because the older model barrels have a kidney-shaped opening in the closed lug, when the slide slams home, the barrel lug can hit the slide stop again. Newer CZ barrels have an open slot,a more SIG-like design, so it might not matter as much when the slide returns to battery.
That said, the only damage I've ever heard about with CZ frames were 1) caused by the base of metal guide rods rubbing against the receiver stop area on the frame in alloy-framed guns, or 2) the frame cracking in one or two CZ-85s, where the slide stop entered the frame. At one time CZ said steel guide rods in alloy frames voided the warranty, but they CZ no longer seems concerned concerned about that. (I had talked with Mike Eagleshield, the head gunsmith at CZ-USA at the time, and he had seen such wear.) In fact CZ wouldn't knowingly sell a steel guide rod for use in an alloy-framed gun, back then. Maybe they're now forging most of their alloy frames, or have changed the formula of the alloy used?
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Hunter Customs
New member
Walt, I agree with the above statement; before I continue on with this let me clarify the only pistols I'm referring to are 1911 pattern pistol.
I know nothing of CZ, Beretta, Glock or any of the other pistol manufactures products unless they are a 1911 pattern pistol, even then I've not had all models come across my bench.
I've seen many things during my pistolsmithing career, slides crack and break, barrel lugs shear (both the radial and lower lug), slide stop pins break, and damage to the frame and other parts caused by forward battering just to name a few.
As for the slide stop pins that broke, both were a MIM part and the pin broke at the junction where it connects to the slide stop lever, both had voids in the pin.
I've never seen a forged slide stop pin break.
From my experience, as for a forged slide stop pin breaking before the 1911frame shows signs of forward battering or the feet on the lower barrel lug shearing, that has not been the case.
As for those that choose to over spring their guns, will their guns show damage immediately, most likely not, but extended use will show some signs.
Keep in mind there's other parts besides the frame that will show damage from over springing.
As I said earlier over springing your 1911 pattern pistol is an ill advised practice, but if someone wishes to do so, have at it, it's your gun.
Best Regards
Bob Hunter
Don't take my post the wrong way: I have seen both slides and frames crack but, numerically, it has been more frames than slides.
One example of endemic slide cracking though, is the Astra 300/3000/4000 series. I have seen probably more than a dozen of those with cracked slides around the ejection port area.
Star A, B, Super, etc. all have a penchant for cracking by the mag release button on the left side, however, which was also a problem on early 1911s. I recently purchased a B from J&G and, much to my chagrin, when I got it home to clean it and took the grips off, there was the hairline crack. Since I don't intend to put a lot of rounds through the pistol, I just stop drilled it.
P.38s are another with tendencies to crack frames. Walther's "fix" was to drill a hole through the slide and shove a piece of Allen wrench though it. As far as P.38 slides cracking, I have mostly seen slides with broken internal recoil spring tabs, and only one or two with cracked slide walls.
Two cracked alloy framed Colts (two Commanders) came to us for repair; We contacted Colt both times for a replacement frame (for which the customer was willing to pay), but Colt handily refused. (This was in the 80s, arrogance time for Colt).
There were more, but my point is that I have personally (as me, myself and I) seen more cracked frames than slides.
One example of endemic slide cracking though, is the Astra 300/3000/4000 series. I have seen probably more than a dozen of those with cracked slides around the ejection port area.
Star A, B, Super, etc. all have a penchant for cracking by the mag release button on the left side, however, which was also a problem on early 1911s. I recently purchased a B from J&G and, much to my chagrin, when I got it home to clean it and took the grips off, there was the hairline crack. Since I don't intend to put a lot of rounds through the pistol, I just stop drilled it.
P.38s are another with tendencies to crack frames. Walther's "fix" was to drill a hole through the slide and shove a piece of Allen wrench though it. As far as P.38 slides cracking, I have mostly seen slides with broken internal recoil spring tabs, and only one or two with cracked slide walls.
Two cracked alloy framed Colts (two Commanders) came to us for repair; We contacted Colt both times for a replacement frame (for which the customer was willing to pay), but Colt handily refused. (This was in the 80s, arrogance time for Colt).
There were more, but my point is that I have personally (as me, myself and I) seen more cracked frames than slides.
Interesting.I was given an old 38 Super race gun that was built for a championship shooter.He won championships with it.(No,I don't know his name).It was built by Guncraft.Coned,comped,Commander slide.Clark ramped barrel.It was built by a man named Ben.
I passed it on to my brother.
The gun was recently tuned by a Gentleman named Andy.
Its running like a sewing machine.
This gun has shot some serious high volume.It was bilt in 1976.Its a Colt frame single stack.The game moved on to STI double stacks.
Its still smooth,tight,and very accurate.
Its built to run on 1400 fps + 38 Super loads.
Its using a 15 lb mainspring and an 11 pound recoil spring..(I believe.Thats very close)
1) this gun is in excellent condition2)It has lived on loads approaching 40k psi range
3) It has a way higher round count than most of us shoot in a lifetime.
The springing of this gun is done by a more sophisticated method than "Bigger"
One of the credible gentlemen on YouTube is Jerry Miculek.Agreed? He was kind enough to create a video on the basics of shooting a pistol ..fast and accurately.
As he explained the proper grip and arm/body position,he then showed hi-speed ,slow mo photography of the desired outcome ....A stable muzzle that is not waving up and down.
Hard sprung guns show muzzle dip when the slide slams forward.
Go to this vid,at 20 min 19 seconds.True,Jerry is talking about grip.You will get more muzzle dip flinging the slide forward with a 24 lb spring than a 12 lb spring
https://youtu.be/ChSazF41q-s
And,IMO,the high spped photography is revealing.Does it not make sense that the pistol that is most stable during the cycle is suffering the least internal violence?
The above mentioned pistol is sprung so the red dot sight movement is minimal.My brother used a 400 frame per second camera to video the cycling .That's how the spring rate was selected.
That translates to better control,more hits faster.
Another negative issue with overspringing has to do with giving the magazine the dwell time to feed.
But you can do whatever makes you happy.
Me,I'd listen up when that Hunter Customs guy has something to say.
I passed it on to my brother.
The gun was recently tuned by a Gentleman named Andy.
Its running like a sewing machine.
This gun has shot some serious high volume.It was bilt in 1976.Its a Colt frame single stack.The game moved on to STI double stacks.
Its still smooth,tight,and very accurate.
Its built to run on 1400 fps + 38 Super loads.
Its using a 15 lb mainspring and an 11 pound recoil spring..(I believe.Thats very close)
1) this gun is in excellent condition2)It has lived on loads approaching 40k psi range
3) It has a way higher round count than most of us shoot in a lifetime.
The springing of this gun is done by a more sophisticated method than "Bigger"
One of the credible gentlemen on YouTube is Jerry Miculek.Agreed? He was kind enough to create a video on the basics of shooting a pistol ..fast and accurately.
As he explained the proper grip and arm/body position,he then showed hi-speed ,slow mo photography of the desired outcome ....A stable muzzle that is not waving up and down.
Hard sprung guns show muzzle dip when the slide slams forward.
Go to this vid,at 20 min 19 seconds.True,Jerry is talking about grip.You will get more muzzle dip flinging the slide forward with a 24 lb spring than a 12 lb spring
https://youtu.be/ChSazF41q-s
And,IMO,the high spped photography is revealing.Does it not make sense that the pistol that is most stable during the cycle is suffering the least internal violence?
The above mentioned pistol is sprung so the red dot sight movement is minimal.My brother used a 400 frame per second camera to video the cycling .That's how the spring rate was selected.
That translates to better control,more hits faster.
Another negative issue with overspringing has to do with giving the magazine the dwell time to feed.
But you can do whatever makes you happy.
Me,I'd listen up when that Hunter Customs guy has something to say.
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Walt Sherrill
New member
HiBC said:
A number of folks I know went to heavier recoil springs and then had feeding problems. If they're not already running extra-strength mag springs, that will sometimes solve the problem -- by getting the next round up just a hair faster so that it can be caught by the slide.
One pro shooter I know loads up to 180 pf and uses a 10-pound spring with double shock buffs. He says the light spring softens the push from the spring, and the double buffers soften the slide's impact so the gun doesn't torque upward so sharply. The gun runs flatter, and lets him get back on target quicker. The twin buffs shorten the slide travel and brings the cycle time back up to speed with the light spring. The buffs are not there to protect the frame. No concern about damaging the weapon...
That's all theory for me, but I think I understand. I do know, however, that I don't have the reflexes or skills needed to take advantage of the little extra "edge" that sort of modification offers.
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Walt Sherrill said:
Emphasis added.
That makes sense to me. While the total recoil may be the same, putting so much of the recoil into a short sharp impulse would make the recoil and muzzle rise more severe.
I've also read some very smart guys advocate the use of very light springs. If I recall, part of their reasoning was that it gave them better overall slide speed.
Hibc said:
GM is an enormously talented fellow. Perhaps more than one thing is happening in that video. As he explains it, he is showing the difference between a locked and unlocked wrist. With the unlocked wrist, the pistol has torqued upward and is pushed back down to the target. That isn't a dip resulting merely from the arrest of slide momentum.
Assuming that a slide is sent home more quickly with a 24 pound spring, and therefore creates greater downward force on return, it would also create greater push upward as the slide is sent backward. These should cancel one another.
Hibc said:
I don't disagree.
How do you know the arm is over or under sprung? In the example set forth by Walt, one might consider a 10 pound spring to be an element in underspringing a pistol, except that it appears to work well with that application.
How would opening up the slide stop hole help prevent battering? I think the extra movement/play would cause additional battering...
Every component is designed to operate within very tight tolerances. Changing any of these tolerances has unintended consequences.
There's a small chance opening up the frame of your gun might help, but I'm going to guess there's a much larger chance that there will be no benefit and only create irreversible damage.
Every component is designed to operate within very tight tolerances. Changing any of these tolerances has unintended consequences.
There's a small chance opening up the frame of your gun might help, but I'm going to guess there's a much larger chance that there will be no benefit and only create irreversible damage.
Walt Sherrill
New member
I missed that, and went back trying to find what you're referencing, and can't find it. Message #?