Single Shots or Double Taps?

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like double taps and practice it often. But it is a one BG thing. If there was more than
one, single shots and cover are more important. Glenn I must disagree with your times. You are much too fast. I do old west quick draw contest shooting, and yes the fast guys with guns in quick draw holsters might pull these times, but slow me doesn't even come close. Now I admit these are with single action guns, but I would bet most could out shoot in time the fastest semi auto pistol for the 6 shots they have.
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For the life of me I can't recall any timers around in a real shooting. Also what is this "draw" thing? Why isn't the gun IN your hand? If it is a fast draw contest you are so far behind no matter what your speed you will seldom survive. Skip the draw part and you MIGHT win. It is self-DEFENSE. You will find yourself in all most all cases starting from behind.
Now explain how I do this draw thing with a parka on, gloves or heavy coat. Someone left that part out. Most of this nation has several months of that also. Why do the "theorists" keep thinking shootings are in perfect weather conditions? Good point eh?
 
Timers? Substitute "bang" for "beep".
To answer your question, the gun is in the holster because that is where most people carry them. Do you walk around all day with a gun in your hand?
Yes, yes, your predictable answer will be something about "situational awareness" or something along those lines. Does that mean no-one should learn to draw quickly? Have you ever heard the expression "Prepare for the worst"? As for winter gear, being from northern WI, the solution is apparent to me. Large trigger guard, OWB or shoulder holster. I carried an HK USP40. I've shot in rain, wind, and snow. as long as I could SEE MY SIGHTS, it made no difference.

BTW, since you seem to want dates, places & names of every incident someone else refers to, how about yours? Outside source confirmation please.

I don't know what you are trying to prove, but slamming every training exercise but your own, which as far as I can tell is "push your arms out in front of you and pull the trigger repeatedly" is not going to change anyones mind. It will only convince some newbies that being a good shot is irrelevant. Not really a good thing.

Pointing and shooting has it's place, namely when it's too dark to see your sights or at arm's length range. Then it's all up to luck. As for me, I will continue to practice hitting small target areas as quickly as possible. While using my sights to do so. That is what they are there for. When I bring my weapon up to eye level and look through the sights, it is like looking out a window, I see my sights, and my target. If you shoot enough, you develop a "separation" when shooting. My concentration is not on other people shooting, noises, etc. I'm aware of them, but that is all. I've had hot brass fall down the back of my shirt and leave a blister, but it didn't disturb my shooting one bit. I finished shooting, safed the weapon, stepped back from the line and fished that damn brass out. It's all in the mindset. CSM Johnson liked to scream at me from about 2 inches away while I was firing. And occasionally slap me in the shoulders. Run hoses across my feet all day long if you want. Call it "tunnel vision" or "target fixation" or whatever. So what? It's not permanent! if I DECIDE to stop tracking my target or targets, all my attention goes back to my surroundings. That is why I've developed the habit of taking a deep breath and looking all around me when I finish shooting. It provides a clear "break".
Using sights is not very hard. Even under stress with practice. They are on your pistol for a reason.

Of course, it could all be passed off as "false memory recall".
 
Using sights is not very hard. Even under stress with practice. They are on your pistol for a reason.
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YES, TARGET shooters put them there. NOT the military or police. Aren't you glad you asked?
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Pointing and shooting has it's place, namely when it's too dark to see your sights or at
arm's length range. Then it's all up to luck.
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You just defined 90% of all self-defense shooting situations. It isn't luck, it is understanding those simple basics and how to respond to them. Luck isn't the source of that information. If you think so, buy a rabbits foot.
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I don't know what you are trying to prove, but slamming every training exercise but your
own, which as far as I can tell is "push your arms out in front of you and pull the trigger
repeatedly" is not going to change anyones mind. It will only convince some newbies that
being a good shot is irrelevant. Not really a good thing.
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Thug **** 91% of the time. Are you claiming they are "good" shots? I sure am. I want to know why with that high hit rate (see DOJ "Violence Against Law Enforcement Officers 1997)they manage to do that. Don't you wonder? Also it is as simple as pushing your arms out in front of you and firing. It changes their mind when they DO IT in the dark. I had an Air Force training type on the range yesterday and he's convinced. It isn't rocket science for Camp Perry.
If you want to defend the present training systems please do, and let's refer to PERFORMANCE in actual use. Got some figures on it? I sure do. I have more value for my hide than sticking via blind loyalty to something that is getting folks killed. I don't slam it. I say get more of it if you can be convinced it works. Do some research and report back. You could change my mind. Right now I have 8% hit rate confidence in it. Will you settle for that? Cuz that is what the figures are showing. I could do worse? Tell me how.
As for the gun IN the hand, you and so many others have been brain washed into saving the financial butts of your employers you will risk your life to do it.
I don't have perfect solutions, but I know the gun isn't in the hand enough based on the 88% of cops found dead with their guns IN the holster. I think that gives me a little clue as to that issue. I find reasons to take my gun out, NOT keep it in the holster. I have a video of cops arresting a guy who moments before shot two cops. All the cops have their guns IN the holster as they make the arrest. Something is wrong with that picture. I like life far to much to worry about my employers bank account.
I've had my gun IN my hand many times in crowded stores to make arrests and NOBODY saw it. Think about that one.
 
The BG hit ratio is true, but lets qualify it:

ANYONE can walk up on a person 90%+ and put a bullet in him at point blank range. Me. You. Anyone. This is not a training issue, it is an ambush issue. This problem is solved through situational awareness training.

NOBODY walks around with their gun drawn. If you know you may have to use it, fine. Most of the time you don't, and to draw you weapon is illegal at this point. BGs don't care, and I for one will not judge myself by their standards.

But lets get back to the issue: Double taps are the ideal starting point.

Erik
 
Sorry, Erik,(and Short Burts) but I have to address some of this misinformation.

Sights:
"TARGET shooters put them there. NOT the military or police. Aren't you glad you asked?"

Excuse me? Every military small arm I've ever handled had sights. what I have never seen is a police officer carrying a weapon without sights. Oh, wait I have seen some. They had scopes. While I'm on that subject, I admit the military issue sights on sidearms are not very fancy. on the M-9 they are simple 3-dot. On the old 1911A1 they were blade.
The military is not concerned with errant rounds striking a soccer mom behind the guy trying to kill you in McDonalds. But the sights are still there. And when I went through, The instructors taught to USE your sights. Aren't you glad you asked?

"It isn't luck, it is understanding those simple basics and how to respond to them. Luck isn't the source of that information. If you think so, buy a rabbits foot."

So you advocate training to a bare minimum? Basic firearms intrustion only? I get your point, people who do not practice regularly
are best served with simple instructions they will remember and revert to under stress. Fine. But don't tell me I'm wasting my time developing my skills beyond that. Nothing will "guarantee" you win a fight. The best way to improve your odds is to sneak up on you opponent when he expects nothing and shoot him in the back at close range. Or drop him from 200 yards away with a rifle. I'm afraid I really can't do that. Instead, I will improve and maintain my skill level so that I am faster and more accurate that the other guy. I don't rely on luck, mine is pretty crappy. I rely on being better than the other guy.

"You just defined 90% of all self-defense shooting situations"

I'm in bed at night. And that's why I have tritium sights on my weapon. I'm not a cop, so I don't have to approach anyone. I never let someone whom I've evaluated as a threat get near me. If all else fails, It takes no "classes" to learn how to point a muzzle at someone less than 5 feet away and fire.

"Thug **** 91% of the time. Are you claiming they are "good" shots? I sure am. I want to know why with that high hit rate (see DOJ "Violence Against Law Enforcement Officers 1997)they manage to do that. Don't you wonder?"

This has been addressed repeatedly. They are on the OFFENSIVE with the element of suprise. How do they do it? Get close and put the muzzle on the person you want to shoot. Nothing to wonder about.

"As for the gun IN the hand, you and so many others have been brain washed into saving the financial butts of your employers you will risk your life to do it."

What? My employer does not require I carry a gun. However, I do, and if I carried it around in my hand, I would be charged with Brandishing.

"I don't have perfect solutions, but I know the gun isn't in the hand enough based on the 88% of cops found dead with their guns IN the holster."

That's right. Not much of a warning when a BG walks up behind you and shoots you at point blank range.

"All the cops have their guns IN the holster as they make the arrest. Something is wrong with that picture."

Agreed. They obviously need more training. Most cops don't. Here we get to the heart of the matter. Most need more PRACTICE.

"I've had my gun IN my hand many times in crowded stores to make arrests and NOBODY saw it. Think about that one."

Again, situational awareness. I was addressing worst case scenarios and the value of learning to draw quickly.
 
I have to agree with Erik, in theory anyway.

Pick a method and train it. As Erik said, double taps is a place to start.

Whether you chose double or single taps, it will ultimately come down to how you train 'em.

I usually shoot whatever the course of fire calls for, singles, doubles or until the threat is down.

One thing I have to agree with Glenn on, I can never keep track of just how many rounds I fired. I know what everybody says about managing your fire, but I still run her dry. :)

As I said, I hit the targets with whatever the RO and course of fire calls for, other than that, I can never keep track of how many rounds I've fired. I just shoot to slide lock, re-load and get back in it!

Self-Defense situation; I would probably Double-Tap.

Alright, Who am I kidding? I would probably shoot to slide lock while running like Ben Johnson and screaming like some chick in a horror flick. :D



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"JKD is about...discovering the cause of your own ignorance"
 
If all else fails, It takes no "classes" to learn how to point a muzzle at someone less than 5 feet away and fire.
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You need to get out more. Even at that range "trained" cops miss...A LOT! NYPD with an average range of 10-11 feet miss over 80% of the time. This years report will be out soon and will AGAIIN show that. The closer the target the more difficult it is to hit it.
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Excuse me? Every military small arm I've ever handled had sights. what I have never seen
is a police officer carrying a weapon without sights.
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The "sights" on most military type weapons including guns like the S&W Model 36, Model 10, and others are hardly "sights." This includes most pocket guns and even the military 1911 and Browning HP. The sure aren't designed for self-defense uses or low lighting by standards we have today and the move to adjustable sights which began in the late 1950's was a spin off from the target shooting community. You may be interested to note the Isreali's now make the guns for the secret police without sights. I have a 1911 made for me by a retired member of the MASAAD and it was handed to me with a smooth top on the slide. I think we can agree as to their skills in such matters.
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What? My employer does not require I carry a gun. However, I do, and if I carried it
around in my hand, I would be charged with Brandishing.
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You show little knowledge in such matters. I have walked into crowded bars, concerts, and offices with a gun IN my hand and nobody saw it. Think about that. It isn't like in movies or on TV. Creativity is part of survival. You don't go into an office to arrest a felon or fugitive and do a weaver stance ala Police Academy.
Part of the problem is total lack of knowledge of real world problems and procedures and experience.
My father-in-law was shocked to see me walk into a crowded bowling alley and arrest a car thief while he was talking to his buddies. I just asked him to walk with me to the office and not say anything. Mr. Biker did just that. I had my gun IN my hand. It isn't that hard to do. He never saw it either. But he sure FELT it.
 
Move to TX, Darrell and you will never have to worry about a parka and gloves again.

Ever met Lucas Davenport in the Twin Cities?

Wait - he's fictional.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EQUALIZER:
As to the original question.
This scenareo was just played out about half a dozen different times last week on er..."training videos". What normally happens is the bgs are standing there, sometimes as many as two dozen. After emptying the two high cap semi autos at the same time while doing a diving side roll, you go for the closest bg. You grab his gun. But instead of disarming him, you use his body as a shield while you work HIS index finger and aim his arm to shoot the remaining bgs. The remaining bg is scared so bad, that he takes off running in the opposite direction. As he glances back, he fires dry. In a last ditch effort to take you down with his, now, blunt instrument, he hurls the missle in your direction only to bounce off the ground maring a perfectly good finish.....You know the rest of the story.[/quote]

By "training videos" I meant TV and movies. That's where most of the public get their training from. No?

Seriously though, as to the question of video taped surveylance, there are good places for it and places that would be not as prudent, such as Gabe (I believe correctly) brought up. Other times, such as in public jails and prisons, it is extremely necessary. Not just for the protection of the prisoners, but just as important - protection of the guards. I know of a guard who was almost murdered by a DB with a piece of exercise equiptment, a solid yard length bar that comes off of a machine for adjustments. The lady at the desk was too busy painting her nails, fratenizing or something to notice this guard getting murdered on the close circuit. Fortuneately, the guard survived albeit with lifelong wounds and no compensation. The video was not taped, or at least not admitted as evidence. The DB who was literally twice the size, had verbally threatened the life of this guard for a write up an hour earlier, was in for multiple charges of maulicious wounding, attempted murder, etc., had the charges droped. His defense plea was self defense against an unarmed man sitting at a desk. The DB needed a double, triple, quadruple tap judiciously applied to the skull. In this jail at least, only prisoner are permitted to carry weapons. Better policies would have possibly saved this LEOs bacon. The video did not help because of too many weak links in the system. Just my .02c and I think I speak for the guard too.

Question: Is there anything wrong with emptying a magazine in the BG if it can be done rapidly after given reason to believe he is about to do grave harm to you?

robert


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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)
 
Pluspinc: Could you please describe how you walk around in public with a gun in your hand without anyone seeing it? Is the gun hidden beneath clothing, or is it out in the open?
 
pluspinc: Well it is a holster draw because it is an old west style quick draw contest. It is held in July or September in Texas, so no parka or gloves are needed. As for having your gun out. You still can't out shoot most of these people with thier guns in the holster. Seen it tried it, and the reaction time is still incredible. Even me slow as I am with a stock rig can do it better than half the time. The test is you get to have a gun cocked and ready to fire pointed at the target. These guys have it holstered and ready to draw. A light comes on in the center of the target. All you have to do is pull the trigger. My fast time .671 seconds, their fast time .23, .30 some where in there, and I win a little more then half. They win every time. That count draw and travel time for the round to hit the plate to shut off the light.
 
"The "sights" on most military type weapons including guns like the S&W Model 36, Model 10, and others are hardly "sights.""

Funny, they look and function like sights. And that IS what they are called.

"You need to get out more. Even at that range "trained" cops miss...A LOT!"

Sounds like they need more PRACTICE.

"You may be interested to note the Isreali's now make the guns for the secret police without sights."

"Secret Police"? As in the people who are tasked with assasinations? (Nothing wrong with that, but their needs aren't mine)

"I have a 1911 made for me by a retired member of the MASAAD and it was handed to me with a smooth top on the slide."

He knew nothing of your personal preferences in regards to sights? you didn't mention anything? You say he made it for YOU.

"You show little knowledge in such matters. I have walked into crowded bars, concerts, and offices with a gun IN my hand and nobody saw it. Think about that. It isn't like in movies or on TV. Creativity is part of survival. You don't go into an office to arrest a felon or fugitive and do a weaver stance ala Police Academy.
Part of the problem is total lack of knowledge of real world problems and procedures and experience.
My father-in-law was shocked to see me walk into a crowded bowling alley and arrest a car thief while he was talking to his buddies. I just asked him to walk with me to the office and not say anything. Mr. Biker did just that. I had my gun IN my hand. It isn't that hard to do. He never saw it either. But he sure FELT it."

Well, well. ONCE AGAIN, SITUATIONAL AWARENESS! You know you are going to arrest someone, you know they are in the general vicinity. You are on the offensive.
Do you wear a holster? What percentage of your day does the gun stay in the holster?
You are using law enforcement as a frame of reference. Not relevant to me, or most people. If I draw my weapon without a good reason, (ie: a threat) that's Brandishing.

From a previous post:
"I find reasons to take my gun out, NOT keep it in the holster."

Great. More cops should do that. However, not a good idea for people with a CCW. So, since I don't want to go to jail, and have my weapon seized, and pay a lot of fines, I'll continue to practice drawing and shooting. It's all about improving my odds.
Sure I could draw it and stick it in my coat pocket, shield it with my body, etc. etc. but if I have the time to do that, I have time to leave. And why risk it? Eventually someone will see it. It's just a matter of time. If I was a cop on the job, no big deal. Since I'm not, I'd get the full treatment.

As for double taps, etc, it's good practice for fast follow-up shots.

[This message has been edited by Dave AA (edited March 20, 2000).]
 
You only need to shoot enough to stop the threat. Double tapping can appear unresponsible to a jury in a wrongful death lawsuit. May make you look like a killer not a defender.

Many PDs and firearms instructors here in Seattle have backed off the concept. Shoot then assess.

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The Seattle SharpShooter
 
Ah... An argument back on topic...

The problem with shooting once than assessing is that the time lapse between the first shot and the follow up shot allows for the BG to react and fire into you. You fight the way you train, and all that. The double tap was designed as a precautionary safe gaurd. It takes no substantive time to execute. It insures that if the first shot doesn't work, the second is already there. As I mentioned before, if that doesn't stop the threat, proceed as necessary. Also, in a time when 41 shot shootings are ruled justifiable, I see no court ruling double taps as over-kill. Assuming a justifiable shoot to begin with, of course.

Erik
 
The reason I have always been given for double taps, most handgun loads lack the one shot stop power of a longgun.

I usually double-tap because thats what I train to do. My best time so far is 1.09 seconds from my duty holster at 7 meters. Both rounds went into an area the size of a softball. I know there are guys and gals that can do it a lot faster while wearing the same duty gear.

I'm confident I can do that while moving for cover, why stand out in the open and engage multiple opponents?

As stated before, double-taps is a place to start training.


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"There is a common thread between competition and combat shooting - only hits count" Keith Cunningham
 
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