Single Shots or Double Taps?

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Multiple Hostiles.

Whether you live or die depends on who starts shooting first. I do a drill in my Intermediate courses where I pit two shooters against each other as an illustration of this very same problem.

I place one shooter facing three targets, and he is instructed to initiate the shooting as soon as he is ready. I place a second shooter facing a single target, and he is instructed that as soon as he hears the first shot, he is to draw and fire as fast as he can at his own single target.

The man facing the three targets initiates the drill by drawing and shooting each target twice. Invariably, the man with a single target hears the first shot, then draws and fires. His shot usually coincides with the second shot of the second pair (target #2).

The man who is shooting each guy twice always loses the race.

We then repeat the drill with the multiple target man firing only once on each. This now becomes more of a tie, and sometimes he beats the man with a single target.
Remember, the man with multiple targets is STARTING the shooting. You cannot win a defensive engagement against three men. You can, however, be off-sides on the play and do well by starting the shooting yourself. Do you really intend to make three armed guys surrender to you?? they will if they are a bunch of sissies, but not if they are dedicated bad guys. They think they have the advantage and they'll fight.

We do a similar drill with our advanced level with simmunitions. It all comes down to being aggressive and keeping your head. If you are facing three armed men, do you really need to discuss anything with them?? Not me. Fill your hand and go to work. Oh, yes - you had better move too.

If you face three men abreast, they have the advantage. If you move as you shoot so you are facing them in-line, you can use the first man as cover and shoot into the lot of them. I mention this tactic in my pistol book.

Now, as far as assessing the results: If they are still standing, they are still a threat. Forget about shoot and asses, shoot them to the ground. This does not mean you spray and pray or act like you are one of 999 video stars. It means you place reasonably accurate shots into your adversaries repeatedly until they fall down and stop moving.

And, yes, this has been validated in real life (alas, no videos where taken).

Gabe Suarez
HALO Group http://www.thehalogroup.com
 
With the new ammo that is 90%+ effective one shot stops, who NEEDS to double tap? ;) :rolleyes:

As to the original question.
This scenareo was just played out about half a dozen different times last week on er..."training videos". What normally happens is the bgs are standing there, sometimes as many as two dozen. After emptying the two high cap semi autos at the same time while doing a diving side roll, you go for the closest bg. You grab his gun. But instead of disarming him, you use his body as a shield while you work HIS index finger and aim his arm to shoot the remaining bgs. The remaining bg is scared so bad, that he takes off running in the opposite direction. As he glances back, he fires dry. In a last ditch effort to take you down with his, now, blunt instrument, he hurls the missle in your direction only to bounce off the ground maring a perfectly good finish.....You know the rest of the story.

Sorry to ramble. I meant no personal sarcasm at the question, just toward the "training videos."
----------
PS: Gabe,
That's some awesome training! Great demonstration. Do you ever get over to this part of the country?....Say, S.W. PA?


[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited March 14, 2000).]
 
As an attack will be when we least expect it,and are least prepared for it, the attacker will probably be on top of you,in which a gun may do no good at all---might have to create space in order to impliment the gun,while orientating yourself as to what is happening.

In this situation, I would think you would continue to shoot at attacker,or attackers, until the threat has stopped.

It will be so fast in happening,pre thought out plans will not help.

I would also practice a lot of point shooting,firing rapidly.
 
Shameless plug:

Gabe Suarez will be at South River Gun Club just southeast of Atlanta, Georgia on the first weekend of June (both Saturday and Sunday, June 3-4) holding his Combative Handgun class.

Class tuition is $275 plus $35 range fees.

Contact: William Stringer - Stringer & Associates
Box 80545, Conyers, GA 30208
Phone: 770-860-9739, Fax: 404-772-2519
Email: stringer1@mindspring.com

Right off of Gabe's website: "Students are advised that a full understanding of the fundamentals is essential as there is little time available for review."

This means unless you want to be left behind in class you best have your stuff squared away. Gabe might not leave you behind...then you get the ire of the rest of the class for holding us up!!

NOTE this is a 2 day class.

No, I'm not getting paid to say this.

Edmund
 
It means you place reasonably accurate shots into your adversaries repeatedly until they fall down and stop moving.
And, yes, this has been validated in real life (alas, no videos where taken).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You kinda left out the dates, names and places so one can get this valuable information. And yes, reasonably accurate shots is a good idea. In fact I never met anyone in a shooting that wanted to do anything else but. But the miss rate sure shows a inability to that. Maybe someday someone will find a solution for it. So far the results on the street show the search is either not taking place or something else is wrong.
And doncha know it. Never a video around when you need one. Year after year after year as the number of videos keep growing. What rotten luck.
 
Mr. Plus, I hope you are being witty and joking about "there's never a video camera when you need one", and not questioning my integrity.

If your intent is the former, I'll say that videos can work for you or against you. I prefer to NOT have one going, and will never allow one to be installed operationally in my car. This is reality, not scientific theorizing.

The 1992 festivities in Southern Cal taught everyone the foolishness of having everything you do and say recorded. Its not a matter of what really happened, its a matter of the perspective of the viewer.

I'd rather take my chances and let the guy who gets me get away, than to have all the ones who don't get me bring up trivial issues in court later to cost me money.

If your intent is the other, my schedule is well publicized and I welcome the opportunity to discuss your doubts in person.


Gabe Suarez
HALO Group http://www.thehalogroup.com
 
I would think if someone makes a claim that something has happened it would be easy to provide the information so there can be some peer review if possible. If it is just a story that floated along so be it. We learn from those as well.
As for videos they have more than once saved an officers hide. It appears you find some need to hide or conceal your actions or the actions of others which I don't feel is in the best interest in quality of performance for a police officer. I would welcome news crews to be with me when I was on the street and in fact often used them to our advantage.
We also have the chance to learn from videos of actual use of force and procedures. It seems strange that there are so many attempting to block this valuable source of information.....REAL strange.
You seem to insinuate documentation is a bad thing which supports my views of police burying valuable information we need to determine what works and what doesn't.
The continued attempts to suppress or create inaccurate information doesn't do us well. But each to their own agenda. I'll stick with validation via video or any other source. You just validated that concern based on what you DON'T want us to see or know for whatever reason.
But based on the videos like Rodney King and even those taken in police stations, jails, prisons and from squads, it appears the desires to suppress such information is shamefully substantial. Perhaps such videos would support the inability to apply training or an absence of training among other things. Considering the state of affairs of the LAPD right now, me thinks there is a need for a lot of video in that area. I put the first home made video system in my patrol car in 1982 or 83. It was for MY protection. I can't possibly see a down side to such documentation. I think you will agree it aids in drunk driving convictions as well. Cops LOVE video when it helps them. Also many prisons now mandate video be TAKEN to scenes of confrontations. It gets them OUT of more hassles than it ever gets them into. Perhaps you could provide us with some detailed comments on the downside of video.
As for schedules, mine is also posted on my web page. As for California, the beach is one the wrong side.
 
I know of several departments which have switched away from videaos in their cars. The reason? They experienced a rise in frivolous lawsuites. Apparently the nuances of frame by frame analysis is a lawyer's dream.

Erik
 
FYI, recently saw a Washinton State Trooper on tv who said they are going to get car cams.

It seems to me that double tapping is not such a good idea. The physics involved with muzzel movement when shooting, and its affect on the flight of the bullet, lead me to that conclusion. I think I may have presented my thoughts on this in the past in another thread, but here is an updated, new, and revised version.

If you shoot bam/bam, or bam/bam/bam, it is doubtful that the gun muzzel will return to exact target center before the second or third shot is on its way. Even if you shoot bam - bam, or bam - bam - bam, that is unlikely, but more likely than the first example.

The following chart shows at varying distances, how far off the exact center of a target a bullet will strike if the gun muzzel of a standard pistol is off of the exact target center when a shot is fired. It is a matter of physics, not conjecture. The only assumption made is that the rear of the gun stays in a relativley fixed position which I think is a reasonable one.

Muzzle
movement 1/8in__2/8in__3/8in__4/8in__5/8in

Target
Distances --- Off target CENTER strike amts

5ft______1in____2in_____3in____4in____5in

10ft_____2in____4in_____6in____8in____10in

15ft_____3in____6in_____9in___12in____15in

20ft_____4in____8in____12in___16in____20in

25ft_____5in___10in____15in___20in____25in

Example: If your gun muzzle is just 3/8in off from the exact center of a
chest sized target (11in wide x 17in tall), and you are at a distance of
only 15 feet, you will miss.

If you consider the table data, recoil forces when shooting, and the conditions that are experienced in close quarters shooting situations, it is no wonder why close quarters shooting accuracy is bad.

Now consider trying to hit a moving target in bad light. Not.

More info on how the chart was developed is on my web page if you are interested. The URL is: http://members.aol.com/okjoe/ps.htm

This does not mean I am an advocate of sighted shooting in close quarters situations. I believe that it does not happen. Believing in sighted shooting to me is like believing in flying saucers. When I see a flying saucer flying over low and slow, I will say they are for real.

Call me Missouri Joe.

When I see a video of a shooting in which sighted shooting is used, I will say it happened. When I see several, I will say it happens now and then, but rarely in comparison to unsighted shooting.

If you have seen any of my posts in the past, you know that I am an advocate of AIMED instinctive shooting that allows you to shoot fast, accurately, instinctively, and multiple times with little if any training. Info on it and test results by police and others are on my web page. I am not a training expert, gun expert, or even a regular shooter, so don't rely on what I say. Review the pros and cons and test data of others and draw your own conclusion.

edited 9:24 pm PST


[This message has been edited by okjoe at aol.com (edited March 16, 2000).]
 
Video is here to stay. We had a dept that experienced several claims each month of officers being rude, profane, and even brutal and each year two or three were fired and several got days off etc. They put in video and have had few claims since. Seems when they bitch they plug the cassette into the VCR and the complaint vanishes. It saved far more officers than it ever hurt and if it hurt them it was obvious why when you saw the video.
We are also learning almost daily that the officers recall of events is almost always flawed and most flawed seriously. Again, saving thier butts.
Some depts now use wireless TV systems with the camera worn ON the officer.
I have a case right now in Minnesota where we are reviewing a video of a news person assaulted by police. Yup, we are going over it frame by frame. Yup, the cops are gonna cook on this one. They "forgot" the camera was running and suddenly you hear them yell, "get the tape out of that thing." That will do well in court.
Video is showing us what we are doing wrong in shootings and use of force issues. It is NOT however showing us what we want to see and it is about time to stop the denial of what really happens. If we look at the tapes it screams for a solution to the obvious problems at we now capture. Denial is only going to last so long, and excuses are running out.
 
Stop it!


Unless you train religiously you will probably empty your gun............if you can.

Maybe.

IMNSHO train using doubles.

------------------
"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
OKJoe,
I see people out to 15 yards regularly fire accurate double taps. By accurate, the target area is a standard paper plate stapled over center mass of a life size silouette target. These are not "experts" that I am talking about, but casual shooters who take a little time and effort on their part. It is not magic- try it.

Erik
 
OKJoe,
I see people out to 15 yards regularly fire accurate double taps. By accurate, the target area is a standard paper plate stapled over center mass of a life size silouette target. These are not "experts" that I am talking about, but casual shooters who take a little time and effort on their part. It is not magic- try it.
Erik
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
You are talking TARGET shooting. Turn off the lights and induce fright. Perhaps making them shoot with bare feet and tell them a dozen rattlesnakes are on the loose. When you yell SHOOT run a rubber hose over their feet and let us know how accurate they were. They won't know what planet they are on or how many fingers or toes they have let alone count shots during that vital 3-5 second period of time.
Why we think formal well organized comfortable and SAFE shooting works in the real world amazes me.
 
I know people who have put in the time and effort, been involved in shootings, hit, won, and recalled "front sight, press" when asked about it. They admitted that while afraid, they functioned, and reverted to their training. Growing up in a military family, I have known dozens of combat veterans who recalled their ability to perform as trained under the stresses of war. They admitted fear of losing life and limb, but continued to functioned as they were trained. No, I didn't ask if they were caught on tape, their recollection was too interesting to interrupt. I think although well intended, you're preaching about the lowest common denomenor.

The argument that you cannot double tap someone in like the argument that you cannot Mozambique Drill someone. The Mozambique was so named because someone DID do it in combat, in Mozambique. They will work if you are up to it. If you are not, it is either because of lack of training or lack of fortitude at the moment. You can train for one. I admitt that until the time comes individual fortitude is an unknown. But to disregard training is rediculous.

Erik

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited March 16, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited March 16, 2000).]
 
Erik, you are a student of the "one time" school. I once double tapped a liquor store robber. I only fired twice btw because that is what was needed. I missed one hit one.
So we will call that the "Zip Drill" since it was at Zip's Liquor store. I am destined for gun rags hall of fame I guess.Another was on Highway #212, so that will be the "212 Drill"..this is kinda catchy.
Recently we had a video come up out of Texas where a trooper said a motorist shot at him and that is why he shot the motorist. The motorists gun was NOT fired and the video in the cruiser showed that as well. The trooper passed a lie detector test. Your undocumented anecdotes are just that. You need some verifiable scientific efforts to prove a point. Known as "False memory recall" eyewitness statements are not only suspect but almost totally inaccurate. I have a case of police misconduct caught on tape and the officers statements sure don't agree with the tape.
Of course there are SOME cases where most anything can be proven, but single or unusual cases and instances are hardly a foundation to build a training program on for the masses.
Hanging onto aged theories is easy vs looking into reasons for changes. Your "theory" you so heavily embrace has a dismal performance rate in the street. I don't think MORE of it is a solution. I'd look elsewhere. I doubt if anything I do or anyone else does that is outside of the conventional logic can do any worse than what we see today.
In training you have to look at the mass group you teach and try to figure out a way to get that mass group to perform. You will have a few stars and a few nurds in each class. I wish the world was all stars, it would be so much easier. But that isn't the reality.
 
I like double taps and practice it often. But it is a one BG thing. If there was more than one, single shots and cover are more important. Glenn I must disagree with your times. You are much too fast. I do old west quick draw contest shooting, and yes the fast guys with guns in quick draw holsters might pull these times, but slow me doesn't even come close. Now I admit these are with single action guns, but I would bet most could out shoot in time the fastest semi auto pistol for the 6 shots they have.


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glenn E. Meyer:
Geez - let's assume 3 bad guys.

Really good times between shots with an
easy recoiling gun is 150 msec.

So here we go.

See the first guy threatening you. Assume
about 650 msec to draw and double tap this guy.
(Again a bit fast my best times are in the .6 to .8 second range to draw and hit one target from a cowboy holster, not one tucked into my pants or a sholder holster. I would expect more like 1 to 1.5 seconds on a good day.)
Then you move to second guy - 100 msec to move.

You are at 750 msec. Now add 300 msec for the next two shots. Now move to the third guy who
is of course stationary.
(again really fast. Even the best guys that know the target is exactly feet away barely hit the second target in under a second. my best is 1.5 seconds for clearing both targets. and I know it is there and have practiced my swing in that direction. All shooting from the hip.)
It takes you about 1050 msec or a second
to get to the 3rd guy if you double tap
and he doesn't move.
( more like 4 or 5 seconds in reality.)
So cover is important no matter how many opponents. If you got more than one you made a mistake being there.
A second and someone can travel 14 ft or be shooting at you.

With three armed opponents - you are screwed
to begin with. You would be lucky to single shot each one.

Forget stopping power. Get a bullet in each.
However, you'd be real lucky. You might
be better diving for cover or running
like a scared chicken in a zig zag pattern.

Standing there and shooting out with three guys let's you talk to Saint Peter.[/quote]
 
Pluspinc,
You bring the idea that you must stop after double tapping. No. You stop when the threat is gone. You often site "capacity tap." I understand that you are stressing that two is not a magic number which will always save the day. What it is is the ideal starting point. Rapidly transition to other shots/strings of shots as necessary if the center of mass double tap doesn't work, by all means. To reiterate: start with the double tap, while usually that is enough, don't bet your life on it, and be necessarily prepared to move on.

Erik
 
I should bring up that the old adage that "you fight how you train" is true. If you only train to double tap, lower to ready, and holster, may real trouble never find you. But to dismiss double taps because of poor training and mindset is wrong.

Erik
 
AndrewH : yep - very fast - I was using the fastest master level IPSC guy I know.

My point was that even with super reflexes - the original double tap dudes were babbling about stopping power and the like without thinking about time.
 
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