Single Action as Primary Carry?

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and if someone thinks they can do it, or do it well, against multiple attackers, like the Man with No Name, then that person is a fool.
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Actually, he DID have a name......several, actually.

In "Fist full of Dollars" he was "Joe".

In "For a few Dollars more" he was "Manco".

In "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" he was "Blondie".

:D

But, your SD point is a valid one.
 
Winchester 73:

That "wannabe" happens to be a multiple-time world champion single-action shooter....as is his granddaughter. And, if you believe that we fight like we train, the video shows that they'll both do just fine in a SD situation with a single-action revolver. In addition, I'm showing a real-life application of shooting techniques...not Hollywood fiction. What's next?....demonstrating proper gun-drawing technique from the cantina scene in STAR WARS?....

Are you going to believe Hollywood....or your eyes?....
 
Actually, he DID have a name......several, actually.

In "Fist full of Dollars" he was "Joe".

In "For a few Dollars more" he was "Manco".

In "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly" he was "Blondie".
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True, but if you paid attention in the movies, most of the people in the movie knew nothing about him, including his name. It was if he came out of nowhere, yet had a profound presence.

I was aware of the names that you mentioned, but on the other hand, its not like he referred to himself with those names. Those names could have been attached to him, but who was he really? Hence, "Man with No Name" trilogy.

That "wannabe" happens to be a multiple-time world champion single-action shooter....as is his granddaughter. And, if you believe that we fight like we train, the video shows that they'll both do just fine in a SD situation with a single-action revolver. In addition, I'm showing a real-life application of shooting techniques...not Hollywood fiction. What's next?....demonstrating proper gun-drawing technique from the cantina scene in STAR WARS?....

Are you going to believe Hollywood....or your eyes?....
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Allow me to clarify: he is good at what he does, but that video has nothing to do with SD. I bet you even THOSE TWO, being who they are, would probably go with a standard shooting technique for a SA in a SD scenario, since their lives are potentially on the line with a SD encounter. CAS is not real life, even though the guns are real. CAS being not like a real life SD encounter, is an important determination to make, esp in this conversation. No, I do not believe they would attempt to use their fanning (which their fanning really is more precise than other methods) in a SD scenario. Imagine how fast they could their SA revolver in the standard method. Why would they ever need to fan?

My main point was that their prowess at shooting metal sheets has nothing to do with the conventional wisdom of the fanning practice in a SD scenario. Of course he is award winning, but what does that have to do with the topic of a SA revolver in a SD scenario? Not a damn thing when you think about it. If you want to point out that it could be done by someone crazy enough to attempt it, or that he of all people could do it, I agree, but my question is if fanning is a wise consideration for a SA revolver user in a SD scenario? No, it is not.
 
Winchester 73:

1. What Evil Roy & Holy Terror are doing isn't fanning...it's slip-shooting (trigger held back, weak-hand thumb cocking & releasing the hammer). This technique is well-known with those who've studied the use of SA sixguns....people like Jim Wilson, John Taffin, Bill Jordan, & Massad Ayoob. It's an excellent way to get hits on target quickly.....as you can see.

2. You showed Hollywood & called it a valid example. I showed real life & you called it unrealistic. Do you also consider the training videos from Gunsite & I.C.E. unrealistic because the targets don't shoot back?

....Let's put aside the fantasy & look at reality....
 
If you think what Evil Roy is doing is fanning, then you need to go back to school and no, you probably shouldn't carry a single action for self defense. I don't even know if they are slip-hammering. Either way, that IS the way a single action should be run in a self defense situation. :confused:


Imagine how fast they could their SA revolver in the standard method.
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What exactly would that be?


Actually I am quite proficient with single action revolvers, having been shooting them for over 40 years and actually competing in CAS for several years. There again, never assume.
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Then you are the exception. However, couldn't one use your logic to argue against carrying an antiquated double action S&W, as opposed to a high capacity automatic???

The point being made is to use whatever you are most proficient with. If you are MORE proficient with a DA, then yes, I don't think anyone would argue your choice. I am not. As said, some of us do way more shooting with single actions than DA's or autos.
 
I'm not even that good at CAS shooting & often have stages ( 10 rounds of single action revolver ( 5 in each of 2 guns ), 10 rounds of lever action rifle, & at least 4 rounds through my double barrel shotgun, including the transition between guns & targets ) that time out at around 20 seconds ( I think my best is 16 seconds )... not smoking fast, but not too shabby for a old guy newbie... I'm still new enough, that my goal is to hit all the targets, then worry about time... with 10 stages, that's a lot of shots... but I have gotten a couple "clean" sheets ( 100% hits ) at times as I listed...

I shoot in the classic cowboy class, so my stuff is not all "slicked up" & I really only compete against myself, keeping records of my times, & trying to continually improve on those...

since I most often carry a single action in some form, I think of this as 1st "fun", but also as tactical training :D

Oh... BTW... I don't "fan" & even "slip hammering" takes a lot of practice,,, put a bullet over the berm by accident while CAS shooting, gets you a DQ, shoot an innocent by stander in a self defense situation, gets you a free trip to prison, as well as empty bank accounts later in civil court... I shoot each revolver 2 handed trying to get a smooth rhythm between the eye ( getting on target ) the trigger finger, & the hammer thumb of the other hand... same way I'd shoot in a self defense situation...
 
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Few will achieve the speed and skill of Bob Munden (RIP), but few would have faired well against him in a convenient store if he had had a loaded single action in his hand, and decided he needed to "fan" a few shots at multiple attackers. He WAS that good, and I wouldn't have wanted to be the one to be robbing the store and come up against someone of that skill level. Is anyone willing to practice with a single action to that degree, just to be able to be that good with one, and then choose it for self defense? Probably not. But one CAN be deadly with one; to the point that WHAT the other guy is using is immaterial.
 
Cowboys!

Fast as greased lightnin' is not how I would characterize the 85 th percentile shooter. If you are a gunfighter, obviously you should know your trade. If you can't get 4-5 hours practice everyday with your sixgun, and you aren't hugely talented in the first place, you're probably not going to beat a super star. I'd advise against laughing at the other guy's mule, just to err on the side of caution. There is the Judge Roy Bean approach to defeating quick draw artists, but the legal implications are enormous, unless you are in fact the judge.
 
2013...

It's 2013, not 1913, so if you feel you can explain or justify your actions to a homicide investigator a prosecutor or a jury of your PEERS(many of whom know little or nothing about shooting or firearms) then be my guest.

I like being outside of prisons & jails, myself, ;).

And for where I post or what I do, I'd read my posts & decide what you want not gauge a reply by the # of posts or the forum location.

ClydeFrog
 
It's 2013, not 1913, so if you feel you can explain or justify your actions to a homicide investigator a prosecutor or a jury of your PEERS(many of whom know little or nothing about shooting or firearms) then be my guest.
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And your justification for this fear is???


And for where I post or what I do, I'd read my posts & decide what you want not gauge a reply by the # of posts or the forum location.
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The number of posts in a forum is a clear indication of your level of interest and experience. Folks who are primarily revolver shooters tend to not hang out in the autoloader forum. 85% of my posts are in this forum, 13% in the rifle forum and there is a very good reason for this.

You didn't answer my questions.
 
1. What Evil Roy & Holy Terror are doing isn't fanning...it's slip-shooting (trigger held back, weak-hand thumb cocking & releasing the hammer). This technique is well-known with those who've studied the use of SA sixguns....people like Jim Wilson, John Taffin, Bill Jordan, & Massad Ayoob. It's an excellent way to get hits on target quickly.....as you can see.
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Ok so I mentioned fanning, and I took for granted you would post FANNING (because remember, I never mentioned slip shooting, because I didn't know what it was) when you criticized me for saying FANNING is a foolish maneuver in SD. So I didn't know there was another term for what they were doing, but now I know the video did not show fanning, so there was no reason for you to post it. I was not discussing what they were doing, which I admit, they were efficient at. However, remember, they were shooting steel plates, so once again, its not the same as SD. Your video was misleading in relation to what we both said. I criticized people who would try fanning in a SD encounter, and you mentioned even a girl can do it, when she wasn't fanning anyways. Thanks for confusing everyone including myself.

If you think what Evil Roy is doing is fanning, then you need to go back to school and no, you probably shouldn't carry a single action for self defense. I don't even know if they are slip-hammering. Either way, that IS the way a single action should be run in a self defense situation.
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I was using something called deductive reasoning. If I mention fanning, and he posts a video, and mentions how fanning can be done, even a girl can do it, why would I assume he posted something different, and irrelevant? I of course once again placed too much faith in someone else. That gets me everytime.

I would never carry a SA revolver anyways, because for all the time one practices, they could have gotten proficient with a semi auto or DA revolver instead, which both are more advantageous than a SA revolver in a gun fight.

The real irony here is that fanning was only ever done because technology had not yet caught up to what the gunfighter of the day really wanted, a reliable semi auto pistol, or at least a DA revolver. Perhaps fanning could be slightly faster, but its also less accurate than shooting a DA revolver in double action, or shooting a semi auto pistol. Of course, if you're Bob Munden, Evil Roy, or someone like that, perhaps then, after 100k rounds or more then you might actually be that good at fanning. However, for the rest of us, a SD encounter is not the time to imitate your favorite Spaghetti western.

Imagine how fast they could their SA revolver in the standard method.

What exactly would that be?
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Typo - I meant to say fire* the SA revolver in the standard method. But still, IMO if you have to ask that, then you shouldn't be carrying a SA either. People say there are no stupid questions, well now those people are liars. I was referring to shooting the gun two handed, and cocking the hammer before each shot, with the non-dominant hand. If your non-dominant hand was hurt, you could cock the arm and shoot it with one hand. What the _____ else would a standard shooting method be for a SA revolver?

Oh... BTW... I don't "fan" & even "slip hammering" takes a lot of practice,,, put a bullet over the berm by accident while CAS shooting, gets you a DQ, shoot an innocent by stander in a self defense situation, gets you a free trip to prison, as well as empty bank accounts later in civil court... I shoot each revolver 2 handed trying to get a smooth rhythm between the eye ( getting on target ) the trigger finger, & the hammer thumb of the other hand... same way I'd shoot in a self defense situation...
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MWM gets todays common sense award. This is exactly the thought behind what I am saying - the consequences are the chief concern here, not whether or not someone can be like Evil Roy. Even an accomplished CAS guy would not fan for obvious reasons in a SD encounter. Why would any rational person consider it is the big question?

Few will achieve the speed and skill of Bob Munden (RIP), but few would have faired well against him in a convenient store if he had had a loaded single action in his hand, and decided he needed to "fan" a few shots at multiple attackers. He WAS that good, and I wouldn't have wanted to be the one to be robbing the store and come up against someone of that skill level. Is anyone willing to practice with a single action to that degree, just to be able to be that good with one, and then choose it for self defense? Probably not. But one CAN be deadly with one; to the point that WHAT the other guy is using is immaterial.
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This is another good point. For the time it would take for someone to master the SA six gun that way, someone could have mastered say a 1911, CZ 75, or S&W model 10, which offer many advantages to the shooter.
 
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2. You showed Hollywood & called it a valid example. I showed real life & you called it unrealistic. Do you also consider the training videos from Gunsite & I.C.E. unrealistic because the targets don't shoot back?

....Let's put aside the fantasy & look at reality....
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Shooting at targets is not the same as shooting at a living breathing person who might be attacking you. In a VERY SUPERFICIAL way, I see what you're saying, and I did the whole time. However, doing something against a target DOES NOT mean (for the 100th time) that you could do it even HALF as good in a real life encounter. Its a very naive assumption to say that someone who hits all of the paper and steel and cans will hit all of the targets in a life and death scenario.

See, here is how I am different from other TFL members (among other things) instead of saying I know I would be cold as ice in a SD encounter, instead of saying I know I would hit the attacker, because I can hit a piece of paper, instead of saying my skills are top, I instead think the opposite. I know I could be better, because we all could be better. I could see myself missing in a SD encounter (not that I'm not accurate, but SD IS DIFFERENT) or perhaps forgetting to count rounds - pulling a trigger on an empty gun, dropping my reload where I can't get to it, etc. I am a mortal, and thus, I make the mistakes that mortals make.

Talk is cheap regarding SD, and few people have walked the walk. Anyone can guess what "walking" is actually like, but you will never know, until you do it yourself.
 
What the _____ else would a standard shooting method be for a SA revolver?
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I have no idea what you meant, that's why I asked. I didn't know that cocking with your weak thumb was such an abstract concept.


...because for all the time one practices, they could have gotten proficient with a semi auto or DA revolver instead, which both are more advantageous than a SA revolver in a gun fight......This is another good point. For the time it would take for someone to master the SA six gun that way, someone could have mastered say a 1911, CZ 75, or S&W model 10, which offer many advantages to the shooter.
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That would be great, except that I have no desire to do that much shooting with DA's and autos. If I did, I would but I don't. I carry an SA on occasion because I'm good with it. I didn't get good with it because I wanted to carry it. Chicken and egg.


...fanning was only ever done because technology had not yet caught up to what the gunfighter of the day really wanted...
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Fanning is a Hollywood invention, unless you still think slip hammering is fanning.
 
Fanning is a Hollywood invention, unless you still think slip hammering is fanning.
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I already explained why I said that in my previous post which you didn't read. I never observed slip firing before, and I had to assume the person who offered the video would get one which had fanning. It a way, its almost the same thing but it is different.
 
Winchester 73:

Maybe I misunderstood....I thought you were showing an example on how a SA-revolver shooter would run the gun in a SD situation. I put my video up as an example of how one should run the gun using a real-life example from those who train with them. Even Gunsite has classes on using SA-revolvers for SD that teach this method.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?nomobile=1&v=qLzv_ZlHE2Q

....I'm just trying to keep it real.....
 
Seeker Two

Now I understand, and no problem. A SA could be a very effective SD gun with practice. Of course, this depends on what you're practicing, and what goals one has in mind as well.

I'm not even a real SA guy, but I got into this thread - sometimes me thinks I take this stuff too seriously :o
 
CAS SHOOTIN

Guys,
The kind of shooting in a CAS match, is the same kind of shooting police use in training using "hogan's alley" or something simular. The only difference is that CAS is for fun, and hogan alley is simular but it is training for officers to stay alive. Could a CAS Shooter do well and survive in a fire fight? That is debatable. CAS Shooters never shoot in a stressfull life or death situation. Could CAS shooter do well in a short fire-fight using a SA revolver?? Probablely, it just depends of how the shooter respond to and handle the stress of the few seconds of the fire-fight.

V/R
J. BUDD
 
An interesting sidenote to the use of single action in a defensive role was that of a resident of NW Colorado driving near Hayden, CO, and seeing the local chief of police in pursuit of a car with a person shooting out of the vehicle at the police car. Shortly after the pass, the cars went off the road, and three occupants of the suspect vehicle ran up into some rocks on a foothill. The police chief took a position of cover, and was still subsequently shot in the abdomen (from a .22 rimfire rifle), but temporarily refrained from returning fire upon seeing at least two of the suspects as juveniles obviously in their early teens. The citizen in the passing car was armed with a Ruger Super Blackhawk .44 Magnum, knew the police chief, and decided to give assistance. He worked his way up, behind the three suspects, and saw that they were ALL juveniles, later found to be 9, 11, and 15, from Rock Springs, WY, who had stolen a car and were on a "joy ride". The armed citizen took cover, and then let one round of .44 Mag fire into the air, and literally stunned the juveniles into surrender. For all it's shortcomings, a single action can be had in awesome chamberings (.44 mag, .454, etc), and on occasion, the effects of concussion, extreme penetration, etc, MIGHT offer advantages that mini-pocket guns do not.
 
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