SIG's "Legion" Series

T

TunnelRat

New member
SIG released the press to discuss their "Legion" series recently. A good article about it can be read on The Firearm Blog.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/10/05/review-sig-sauer-introduces-legion-series-new-legion-p-229/

I'm not overly sure how to feel about this. I typically buy used SIGs because the new models offer nothing that really excites me and with the used market flooded with SIGs you can save hundreds of dollars. Now you can have the thrill of paying hundreds of dollars more than the already expensive models for molded cases, special engraving, new sights (that appear to be copies of similar designs on the market for years), matching knives, and a challenge coin. A challenge coin that you bought. Right. The added trigger work does sound nice, though when I see comments about frame cuts made to get the hand higher I have always found that a situation of diminishing returns on a SIG.

SIG says right in the press release that they are trying to establish or embrace a "lifestyle". "Serious tools for serious users." I guess the rest of us aren't serious. People have mentioned that Harley did the same and likely it could be very lucrative. But for me, I can't help but roll my eyes a bit. However, I'm probably jaded. What do you folks think?

-TR

P.S. - I think someone didn't proofread as well as they should:
In addition, a solid steel guide rod adds weight where it matters most. These enhancements maximize the user’s accuracy potential, while increasing their split times between shots.
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I like the pistols... They are set up well. I prefer the beavertail on a Sig, to me it makes a difference in how it feels when shooting.


Not a fan of the "legion brotherhood" marketing gimmicks.
 
Further proof that SIG has hired marketing people from Porsche and is copying their marketing strategy. :rolleyes:

They already have numerous and complicated option packages, a number of which can nearly double the cost of the basic item with add-ons that are often mostly or entirely cosmetic.

Now they've added packages that include really gorgeous but danged expensive ancillary foofaraw and fancy matching "exclusive" badging. The transition is complete. ;)
TunnelRat said:
I typically buy used SIGs because the new models offer nothing that really excites me and with the used market flooded with SIGs you can save hundreds of dollars.
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Substitute "Porsche" for "SIG" and "thousands" for "hundreds" and I've read this same statement dozens of times in automotive 'Net forums.

Similarly, be thankful that there are still plenty of rich folks who are willing to drop the coin necessary to buy the new ones, then get tired of them and keep the used pipeline full. :D
 
They'll sell like hotcakes. The gearheads will tripping over each other to get in line.

In the car business we used to have saying, "there's a butt for every seat".

Some nice refinements ... Some nice trinkets ... Some useful gear ... And, predictably, some owners will jump at the chance to join a special, limited access "club", too. :rolleyes:

SIG marketing probably earned their money with this campaign. Gotta give that to them. I'm surprised they didn't offer a decoder ring. :p

Guns probably shoot decently, too. ;)

Personally, I'd have much more interest in the knives made for the series, than the guns. :D

I'd carry a SIG as an issued weapon, but I've just never quite found one that made me want to spend the money SIG thinks they're worth (even at an armorer pricing, after my class).

Granted, if I'd made the decision to buy one of the early Browning BDA's, when I could've had my pick for $269, it would've been worth it (especially if it had been a .38 Super model ;) ).
 
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Yeah... They are trying too hard it seems.

They did add features and tweaks that look to genuinely improve the pistol... Not drastically, but a definite refinement.

Then they gussied it up and added all the "exclusive" badging... That I bet anyone can order if they wanted... And made a great pistol a bit of a cringe.

If I could get the pistol with the same setup, but without the "legion" crap and added cost that it brings... I would be tempted.

Though I think I like the g10 grips from the extreme and scorpion version better.
 
I wonder what brand the knife is? I know the Winchester branded knives are made in China.

Me thinks the HK knife I have is made by Cold Steel.
 
I wonder what brand the knife is?
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The one in the press pics, in the padded case?

Zero tolerance... Looks to be the same model I am looking to buy soon. I picked one up at the store not long back, very well built knife.
 
I wonder what brand the knife is?
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It's a Rick Hinderer XM18. They're about $500.


I'm actually interested in these. They come from the factory with my usual required upgrades for Sig's - Gray Guns trigger, HD sights(knockoff), and G10 grips. The gray color is neat, I guess. I also like the beavertail.

I'm certainly interested in the P229 version. We'll see.
 
I am not a fan of beavertails on Sigs but I even if you do this pistol just does not add up unless you are in love with the gray Nitron like finish. IMHO It is selling for $1250 to $1400 without the coin and knife as far as I can tell. Most of the features on the gun are ok but I am not sure they are worth the extra money. The only one I sort of like is the front strap checkering but I have never had my Sigs slipping out of my hands. The lower profile slide catch and decocking lever might be a help to those who have problems with Sigs prematurely locking back but I don't have that issue.

  • If you have to have a beavertail you could get a Elite P229 for $950.
  • If you like the standard P226 you can get one for about $750-$800.
  • Send it to Gray guns and get the Reduced Reset Comprehensive Duty Package for $335 which is a real Gray Guns trigger job not just his part installed by the factory.
  • Add his intermediate trigger for $50

I personally would keep the standard sights but you could always add Trijicon HD Night Sights for $195. The rest of the package is just fluff and buff. IMHO

So for pretty much the same $$$ you could get a real Gray Guns Sig. No you won't be in the Legion so your buddies won't think you are cool and you will not be able to carry that cool coin in your pocket but in the end you will have a much better Sig. In the end Sig is trying to sell you a fancy dressed up assembly line pistol as if it was a semi-custom gun. It has some appeal but in the end it is not the same level as a Gray Guns P229.

This is the Cohen Kimber playbook to a T. This is exactly how he took Kimber to the top of 1911 sale. Make something that looks like a semi-custom gun built on an assembly line and sell it at a semi-custom price.

If you don't need the beavertail like I wouldn't you could complete this package for about $200 less.
 
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without the coin and knife as far as I can tell
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Don't know or care about the coin, but I am almost positive that it would not include the knife. If it did, this would be a better deal than a Glock.... You'ce be getting a tricked out P229 Elite with a bunch of extras for about $700. There's not a chance that they are including a Hinderer knife in the case.

I honestly don't think it's that overpriced. You forgot the G10 grips.

P229 Enhanced Elite - $950
Hogue G10 Sig grips - $140
Trijicon HD sights - $165
Gray Guns (P-SPIT) trigger - $60 (that's NOT what is included on the legion models - this one is adjustable)

We're looking at a little over $1,300 here to make it myself... without the custom color (which I admit that I like). So to really try and closely duplicate it, say have it refinished. Closest thing I can think of would probably sending it to CCR. Which would no doubt be another $200 at least.

So say $1,500 or more... plus the wait time and hassle of doing it yourself... and it's still not really the same.

I wouldn't expect it to be everyone's cup of tea... but I don't think it's grossly overpriced for what you're getting.

Here's a complete overview/review video: https://youtu.be/SNSe7nfLPKg

The custom case and challenge coin ARE included with the purchase, you just have to send in your warranty card and then they ship them to you.
 
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It's a Rick Hinderer XM18
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Looking at it on my laptop instead of the phone... You are right, I can see the words around the hinge.


Did ZT licence the design? As they have a model that looks identical.
 
Did ZT licence the design? As they have a model that looks identical.
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Almost all of the Zero Tolerance knives are collaborations with other designers. The ZT 0550 and 0560 series are Rick Hinderer collaborations. Where the 0300 series is a Ken Onion collaboration and the 0620/0630 designs are Emerson collabs... and so on.

So, yes.. the ZT 0560 is quite similar in design to a Hinderer XM18 that is more affordable without the hand made workmanship.
 
I like the beavertail on a Sig... I have shot 226s with and without one, side by side, and I can feel the difference when shooting.

I really like my 226 Scorpion, it is the smoothest shooting and running pistol I own. It feels like the slide just glides, with no clunkiness anywhere.


The scorpions run for $1180 online right now... I paid $1250 at a local store for mine 2 years ago.

The Elite Sigs start at $950... as was said, add in the extras, and you start shelling out coin.


Overall, I think the changes they did to the pistol are an overall refinement and improves the pistol. Would I trade my Scorpion for one? No, I think the Scorpion is 96% the pistol... A little extra checkering, a bit nicer sights, some redesigned controls, and a different trigger... Thats the only real difference.

The Scorpion does have the SRT in it, and I find the trigger to be very good for a factory job... I dropped in a slightly lower weight hammer spring, and its even better, dropped about a pound on the pull to 4.5lb (if memory serves) and still smooth and crisp.


If I was to get one of these pistols... I could do without the custom case, coin, and "boys club" access... So if I could get the pistol at the same price I paid for my Scorpion, I would be interested more. (but its only a couple hundred difference at that point)


Sigs are expensive, but they are very well made guns. Most quality all metal pistols are near or more than a grand. The exceptions are cheap foreign pistols, and the Berettas. Some are cheap for a reason, some are diamonds in the rough... a little crudely hewn diamond, but diamond none the less. Beretta has the advantage of piggybacking a military contract, so prices are lower, but they still cost up to $800 for some models. (maybe more for some, as I don't follow Beretta pricing)
 
I don't take issue with the price (though I would never spend the $950 for the Enhanced Elite in the first place) that much. The marketing around the package is what makes me cringe a bit. In 4 classes at SIG Sauer Academy (where the instructors and students can use most of this stuff for free all day), none of the people in the top 3 in any of those classes had what I would call "Gucci gear". Most of the best shooters honestly had Glocks or other basic striker fired pistols with different sight options, but few of those had much customization. The instructors are required to use SIG pistols and are typically excellent shots, but that's not to say they wouldn't be excellent with anything else. The one guy who won the class Top Gun with a DA/SA pistol was using a stock P226 from the early '90s. A lot of the older instructors are running SIGs from the same time period despite being able to get newer stuff for 50% off and the younger guys run the P320. It's the guys with the low-key gear that don't draw attention that are often the ones to watch.

Now there is no absolute that money spent on gear means less money spent on training or shooting because frankly there are people who spend huge amounts of money on firearms (I've met some of them). I get that. However I think all of us have seen or know the guy/girl that think the amount of money they spend on the pistol translates directly to performance. There's a part of me that can't help but look at this and think that some of the guys that buy this do so in part because it puts them on another tier up in terms of money spent and "coolness" factor. They didn't just get a SIG. They got a "Legion" SIG. Even though that might bother me, in the end its their money and no trouble to me. Like I said, I'm jaded.

I think to an extent the semiauto market is in a weird place. Striker fired polymer pistols likely make up the majority of sales (with even the DA/SA old timers of SIG, Beretta, and HK now having options in that category) and prices on those pistols are relatively low with M&Ps going for $400 online, options from Canik, SIG's own P320 is relatively inexpensive, etc. The used market is also inundated with used SIGs, in part because of SIGs recent strategy of high production. So how does SIG justify the P series pistols to newer shooters faced with cheaper options? They create the allure of a premium product for "serious" people around what started as a folded and welded carbon steel slide on an alloy frame (German utility).

SIG also recognizes that there are pieces of the pie they have left untouched. Holsters, sights, aftermarket triggers, knives, lights, lasers, ammunition, clothing. SIG makes or markets all of this now. They took a look at what accessories shooters buy and realized that they could get a piece of all of that. The same is true here. A holster, mag carrier, more in vogue sights, aftermarket grips, aftermarket trigger, a knife option, a different case, all of this in a package where SIG gets a piece of all of it instead of just a piece the pistol. I can cringe all I want, but SIG is walking their way to the bank.
 
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Almost all of the Zero Tolerance knives are collaborations with other designers. The ZT 0550 and 0560 series are Rick Hinderer collaborations. Where the 0300 series is a Ken Onion collaboration and the 0620/0630 designs are Emerson collabs... and so on.

So, yes.. the ZT 0560 is quite similar in design to a Hinderer XM18 that is more affordable without the hand made workmanship.
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Yup, I was looking at the 560 series. Pretty high quality, even if they are not hand made...


I looked at getting a Jim Hammond knife once... for a bit of local pride, as we are from the same town... But the prices were way too high for me. (this was over a decade ago, in my early/mid twenties, when money was a bit tighter)
 
Don't know or care about the coin, but I am almost positive that it would not include the knife. If it did, this would be a better deal than a Glock.... You'ce be getting a tricked out P229 Elite with a bunch of extras for about $700. There's not a chance that they are including a Hinderer knife in the case.

I honestly don't think it's that overpriced. You forgot the G10 grips.

P229 Enhanced Elite - $950
Hogue G10 Sig grips - $140
Trijicon HD sights - $165
Gray Guns (P-SPIT) trigger - $60 (that's NOT what is included on the legion models - this one is adjustable)

We're looking at a little over $1,300 here to make it myself... without the custom color (which I admit that I like). So to really try and closely duplicate it, say have it refinished. Closest thing I can think of would probably sending it to CCR. Which would no doubt be another $200 at least.

So say $1,500 or more... plus the wait time and hassle of doing it yourself... and it's still not really the same.

I wouldn't expect it to be everyone's cup of tea... but I don't think it's grossly overpriced for what you're getting.
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I am not saying its grossly overpriced but it is not a custom pistol which is what you could have for almost the same $$$.

My point is that Sig is trying to pass this off as if it is a semi-custom pistol. It is the same thing Cohen did at Kimber. It is the same thing Beretta is doing with the Wilson Combat Brigadier 92FS. They are putting custom like features on a production gun and selling them at a custom gun price. If you love the configuration then it comes out to be a decent deal but it is still a production gun made by the same mass assembly line as every other Sig.

IMHO I could construct a better gun using a standard P226 base gun, preferable a W. German one and build a better pistol for me. Clearly YMMV. If I am going to pony up $1400 for a gun I like to have it exactly as I want it. "Why do you think I am paying you if not to have my way?" -Mattie Ross ;)

I could take a LNIB P229 or CPO at about $600, don't need a beavertail.
Gray Guns Reduced Reset Comprehensive Duty Package – $335
Gray guns Spit trigger $60
G10 grips $100 or even less LNIB in the used market for $75, which is what I paid for my P228 grips.
Heine Straight Eights $118 Installed myself or add $25 for the local smith.

So for about $1250 I would have a true custom pistol with a better trigger IMHO but I can understand that other people might like the straight from the factory method.

But that being said. I the gun I took to Ops Spec Training, http://opspectraining.com/, this year was a old W. German P228, which is one of the German LEO guns brought in a few years back, with a Wolf 20lb hammer spring & a pair of Hogue G10s in black. It shot toe to toe with a Gray Guns custom P229. Jerry of Ops Spec liked it. When he handled it he said "I could shoot the hell of that thing!" :D

 
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The Legion series has caught my interest. I would like to find out more about what action work has been done to it at the factory. I don't ever send any of my pistols out for custom work but would welcome a little extra TLC at the factory keeping the factory warranty in place. A huge downside to me with custom work is that at resale time you get almost nothing extra for that custom work in many cases and not much extra at best in most cases.

On the various forums it certainly has a lot of interest with many SIG lovers. With everything you get it looks like a fair deal to me but I will have to wait until I handle/dry fire one and hopefully get to shoot one. My LGS has a factory shoot each March which is a ways off but I am sure SIG will have them available to try out.

The Legion series will certainly not be for everybody but the good news is SIG has a P226 and P229 for most every budget starting with the CPO ones when they are available. I bought a CPO P229 and P226 a few years back for $500 each and they have been wonderful.

I could care less about the marketing. What is important to me is impressions I get first hand, especially when shooting. ;)
 
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