SIG Sauer: The Break Up. Updates.

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This is great. I would love to see how this plays out.

Now what is catastrophic failure?
Frame crack
Frame rail piece breaks off
Hole in Frame
True spontaneous disassembly
Cats and dogs living together.....mass hysteria
Simply a reliable gun suddenly having failure to feed/eject

I am going to put my money on that 1000 rounds will go through just fine and that the wear may reach a point where it stops wearing. But I have NO experience to say so and I am NOT in any way trying to say that I have such knowledge. Just a gut feeling.

Hell we need a poll. :D

I also stand by the fact that SIG owes nobody anything and much of what they have done over the years has been done to make them profitable again. That being said I think this was a poor decision on SIG's part and in today's hyper connected world it probably would have been as simple as them simply trying to work with the OP even if there was some money out of pocket on both sides.

At any rate if you guys go through with this I am dying to see the results. Kind of a legitimate torture test if you will. I would be will to throw a box or two of ammo in if you guys are really going to do this. Just PM me the details.
 
Don't get offended.. I've gotten texts, emails, PMs, all kinds of requests and offers on this matter. I didn't just post it here. You aren't first in line on my list of requests lol. Relax... One at a time.
 
Let's do this...

Send me 1,000 rounds of whatever 9mm load you want. I'll take it and shoot it all in one day. If the gun hasn't broken, I'll send you the pistol.
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Somewhere in this thread I see a business opportunity to make money betting on MTBF. LOL
 
I'm not real impressed with what transpired so far, other than SIG saying and then doing exactly what they said. At least they put out a policy that was clearly stated up front and aren't deviating from it. Props to SIG. They are handling it exactly as they said they would and no differently than thousands of other makers of products in the US.

On the other hand, we have a second hand purchaser who apparently doesn't understand how to inspect a used firearm and then has a gunsmith make speculative assumptions about the makers warranty process for which they have no right to make.

Used gun buyer + presumptive smith = SIG is at fault? I'm going to suggest that someone is overplaying a bad hand and never had a chance.

I'm thinking this thread deserves to go into the "special snowflake" forum.

Why was a gun that evidenced more than acceptable wear still purchased, and why did the smith defer to SIG for an out of warranty repair rather than deliver his estimate?
 
Well since Earl Grey has done a few trigger jobs and this makes him the smart one and I'm just a dumb machinist who's only spent 30 years making stuff that flys around with 100s of people on board I'll make you a killer offer.
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Given the attitude displayed above, I agree with the machinist comment.

why did the smith defer to SIG for an out of warranty repair rather than deliver his estimate?
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Let's keep repeating this since I guess it doesn't come across. How is Bruce Gray to deliver an estimate on a frame, the serialized part of the handgun that is not something that is, to my knowledge, ever fixed? To my knowledge Bruce Gray doesn't sell frames (which would be treated as a firearm sale).
 
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I'm not real impressed with what transpired so far, other than SIG saying and then doing exactly what they said. At least they put out a policy that was clearly stated up front and aren't deviating from it. Props to SIG. They are handling it exactly as they said they would and no differently than thousands of other makers of products in the US.

On the other hand, we have a second hand purchaser who apparently doesn't understand how to inspect a used firearm and then has a gunsmith make speculative assumptions about the makers warranty process for which they have no right to make.

Used gun buyer + presumptive smith = SIG is at fault? I'm going to suggest that someone is overplaying a bad hand and never had a chance.

I'm thinking this thread deserves to go into the "special snowflake" forum.

Why was a gun that evidenced more than acceptable wear still purchased, and why did the smith defer to SIG for an out of warranty repair rather than deliver his estimate?
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Why did you not actually read the thread, whatsoever?

The gun was purchased in virtually unused condition with zero wear on it.... And to tell that it was out of spec was done with calipers. You take calipers and factory spec sheets with you when you purchase a used gun?
 
I bought it online.

Also..

Why did you not actually read the thread, whatsoever?

The gun was purchased in virtually unused condition with zero wear on it.... And to tell that it was out of spec was done with calipers. You take calipers and factory spec sheets with you when you purchase a used gun?
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LOL. Spot on.

Given the attitude displayed above, I agree with the machinist comment.
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This too I guess.

And no... This was intended as a "buyer beware" thread to help out firearm purchasers. I can't help people from DMing, emailing, and texting me offers. Get a grip, guys.
 
I was thinking about this more. I get the argument that SIG puts out a clear warranty and then sticks to that warranty and no more. Its a reasonable argument.

Still in the firearm industry is it what people expect? Ruger has, to the best of my knowledge, no warranty. Smith and Wesson meanwhile seems willing to go well beyond any reasonable expectation of warranty (I have no idea what the written warranty is). We hear pretty consistently about even some "discount" companies such as Charter and RIA giving a very high level of customer service.

A reasonable argument can be made that Constantine could have had some expectation of SIG stepping up and doing something.

If I buy a new Ruger tomorrow and I find it is out of time and Ruger refuses to do anything because they did not offer a warranty would the argument still be reasonable that they did only what the promised in writing?

I'm curious what would happen if the gun were at SIG (not through a third party). Would there be a discount on repairs offered? A manufacturer "coupon" representing a discount on a new SIG? An offer to buy the firearm back at some price?

Because I don't think this is going to happen and because I think the water has already been muddied in regards to this particular gun (SIG has the serial #) I don't think we can get a clear answer on this one. I get why the OP expected something (though I don't know his exact expectations from the start or those communicated with SIG). I'll reserve judgement on SIG because we don't get to really know the answer to the above question.
 
Don't get offended.. I've gotten texts, emails, PMs, all kinds of requests and offers on this matter. I didn't just post it here. You aren't first in line on my list of requests lol. Relax... One at a time.
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Bottom line you made a counter offer, I accepted, you crawfished.

The gun was purchased in virtually unused condition with zero wear on it
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CPO=certified pre owned=used gun.

He bought a used gun second hand that was already out of warranty.

The gun was purchased in virtually unused condition with zero wear on it.... And to tell that it was out of spec was done with calipers. You take calipers and factory spec sheets with you when you purchase a used gun?
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If you don't take calipers when you purchase a gun that been refinished how do you know there was no wear?
 
Bottom line you made a counter offer, I accepted, you crawfished.
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False. Wanted to see if it was real and worthy to add to the P229 possibilities list. It was, but with your little tirade I take it back now.


He bought a used gun second hand that was already out of warranty.
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Lol...yes? And? I've done the same with Glock and Smith and Wesson. They both worked with me above and beyond. For guns that are half the price I think that was a good move on their part. :)

If you don't take calipers when you purchase a gun that been refinished how do you know there was no wear?
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Oh man.... Not gonna touch that one. You're a die hard collector, aren't you?
 
I'm going to request that this thread gets shut down. I do not understand the animosity with this forum lately. Why does everything need to form into an argument? I am literally just trying to relay my experience with fellow gun owners. There are no ulterior motives whatsoever. And yes, I think Sig Sauer should see this and the higher-ups that are on top of the other higher-ups should make some changes in their PR / CS. Because compared to other major firearm manufacturers, Sig Sauer is lacking. Big time.
 
There is an assumption in this thread. I'm trying to figure out how to word that assumption without making it sound like an attack.

The assumption is that you, in talking with SIG, somehow made it clear you expected full warranty consideration. This assumption hinges, partially, on the perceived issue with the $55 inspection fee.

It might be an entirely incorrect assumption. Reading what you wrote though that is an assumption that some of us have in play in the situation. It could be entirely wrong.
 
I think that they absolutely should have repaired or replaced the gun as the damage is solely a manufacturing defect. If it were normal wear and tear, fine.

I see a lot of people bringing auto makers into this discussion, and you should know that they most certainly are known for repairing vehicles outside of warranty. It's a cost of doing business in the digital age.

GM has 30 full-time staff members dedicated to handling social media complaints and keeping customers happy.

Porsche recently replaced the "intermediate shaft" of a 2003 911 which was well outside of it's warranty. The car only had 18k miles on it (kind of like this gun only has 1k rounds through it). The car shouldn't have broken, and Porsche recognized that fact and did the RIGHT thing. Not the bare minimum of what they are required to do by law.

I think that's the distinction here. Even many of those complaining about this post, saying that "welp, they stood by the warranty so we can't be mad at them... even though I think they should have replaced it" is nonsense. Warranties are written by lawyers. Customer service should be handled by people who understand customer service... Ruger gets it. S&W gets it. Springfield Armory gets it. Why can't Sig?

In my day-job, I run the client services and marketing department of a software company. Customer service is a big deal in customer retention... as this thread indicates quite well. Will it really hurt their bottom like that this experience, put out on several forums, Facebook, and Instagram have turned a couple dozen people away from buying Sig guns? Probably not... but it will be archived and show up in searches on the Internet for the foreseeable future. It will damage their reputation. Production cost for Sig to replace the gun would have probably been $500, give or take... on a product that was damaged not by the end user, but due to faulty machining. Constantine recognized that the gun was out of warranty, but contacted them and gave the opportunity to do the right thing - to which they declined - before ever seeing the gun. They'll 'look' at any gun you send them for $55..... but it was clear that they had already made their decision.

If I was Sigs customer service manager, I would consider this an easy $500 investment into marketing. "Hey man, I tell you what. The gun is out of warranty, but I realize this was a mistake on our end. I'll tell you what. Let's get you a replacement gun. Just do me a favor and let your friends know that we supported you, cool?"

That's how you handle customer service. Any company who 'stands by their warranty' on what is clearly a legitimate manufacturer defect, and doesn't do what is obviously the correct ethical choice, regardless of warranty, is not a company that deserves your support. Maybe you differ in that assessment. Good luck.

Edit to add: Kind of like the used, broken, Walther PPS that I purchased back in 2010. Called S&W. They sent me a prepaid label to take a look at it. Determined it could be fixed, and sent me a brand new gun. I never expected that. I asked for recommendations on what to try since it was jamming all the time. Because of that, I went on to purchase multiple M&P pistols and spread their good name around to anyone who would listed. I did this also because of my customer service experience. I know that happy customers tell 1 friend and angry customers tell 100. I wanted to tell 100 people about how awesome their service was. I've never had to send a gun in to Sig.... but I've been waiting on a 224 decocking lever that I've had on order for 2 months.... with still no word. When I ordered it, I was told I should expect it in about 5 weeks.

This is another example of customer service. Always under promise and over deliver. If you tell me it's 12 weeks out and I get it in 8 weeks... I'm a happy camper. If you tell me it's 5 weeks out and I get it in 8 weeks.... I'm not so happy. I understand that stuff happens in the manufacturing world. It most certainly happens in the software world as well. How you handle the situation is the measurement that should be counted.
 
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I think that they absolutely should have repaired or replaced the gun as the damage is solely a manufacturing defect. If it were normal wear and tear, fine.
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I appreciate you sharing your opinion as well, though I was looking for Constantine's response.

Customer service should be handled by people who understand customer service... Ruger gets it. S&W gets it. Springfield Armory gets it. Why can't Sig?
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I'd point out that we're talking about ONE, 1, example of SIG customer service. Based on that one example you're making an overarching judgement of their customer service as it relates to the entire industry. You're in client services and marketing? I'm a statistician. One example is meaningless in all honesty. It's certainly not meaningless to Constantine, but it's not meaningful for making judgements. If it was then I could claim HK's customer service is terrible based on my experience. But I recognize that as a human I weigh what happens to me personally more and that my example may be an outlier. That's why I suggested you make a thread on CS in the industry as a whole. Many examples have more value for making judgements than just one.

In my day-job, I run the client services and marketing department of a software company. Customer service is a big deal in customer retention... as this thread indicates quite well. Will it really hurt their bottom like that this experience, put out on several forums, Facebook, and Instagram have turned a couple dozen people away from buying Sig guns? Probably not... but it will be archived and show up in searches on the Internet for the foreseeable future. It will damage their reputation.
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Which, if we're being honest, was kind of the goal all along. I'm not opposed to this either to be honest. You shared a bad experience. However some people interpret that experience differently. This is a forum. You get argument, disagreement. It's not just you telling people what to think and everyone nodding along. If you don't want feedback, then honestly a forum is a weird place to go.

That's how you handle customer service. Any company who 'stands by their warranty' on what is clearly a legitimate manufacturer defect, and doesn't do what is obviously the correct ethical choice, regardless of warranty, is not a company that deserves your support.
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I don't see this event as SIG Sauer somehow showing a breakdown in "ethics". I think that's a bit of a grandiose claim. As you said, some people may differ in their assessment. But to get upset at them for it, which is how I perceive the reactions from you and Constantine at times on this thread, seems a bit much.
 
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What uncle malice said.

The fact is the don't have any obligation but a little good will goes a long way.

I as in me as in the idiot behind the keyboard here boogered up a set of Crimson trace laser grips. CT. I told CT that the fault was completely my own and asked if there was a possibility of me paying for a repair or if I just should buy a new set.

The lady on the phone said they would hear of no such thing and had a new set in the mail to me that day and simply asked I return the broken ones.

They had NO OBLIGATION to do so and all issues were my fault. What they did do is sell a few more grips to me and others for the 180 or so bucks they invested in me and they have somebody preaching for CT to this day.
 
I'm a statistician.
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Exactly. And it's people like that regulating their Customer Service department that caused them to make the decision that they did. I understand how you see it and why you see it that way. We disagree on the correct way to handle the situation.

They just made it a value proposition. One guy with an out of warranty broken gun? Who cares?

It's about numbers and the bottom line, rather than people and taking care of the customer.
 
It's about numbers and the bottom line, rather than people and taking care of the customer.
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A lot of things are about numbers. There have been many great companies over the years that have ignored the numbers in the hopes that great CS will keep them solvent. Some were right. Some weren't. Eventually at some point if the CS is so bad people will stop buying the product. Time will tell when/if they reach that point.

Until then, getting emotional about it really helps no one (which is honestly how I'd classify some of the response here). Your buddy is stuck with an out of spec pistol. It sucks. You and he can continue posting here and elsewhere about how terrible SIG Sauer is based on this one example, and that's certainly your right. And you'll likely influence some people along the way. But in the end you're still stuck with an out of spec pistol, and I'm stuck wondering if this is really the right sub-forum anymore for the discussion taking place.
 
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