Side-by-Side or Over/Under?

In Sporting Clays...since you know exactly where the bird is coming from - and its flight path, prior to shooting the station ...there is no disadvantage to shooting a high gun - and the rules permit it.

At some stations I will shoot a high gun ( depends on what the targets are - and how well I can see them )....or I will use Bobby Fowler Jr's technique - where I premount the gun - and then drop the muzzle but leave the stock in contact with my shoulder if I have a lot of time or a lot of trees or brush that obscures the target on its path.

But if the targets are fast ...and with small windows to take them in an optimal spot...shooting high gun is just fine in my view. But I'm not a Master Class shooter either...the best I've ever done was class A / and I stayed in Class B for a long time.
 
Jim you sound experienced. So I ask, if you were to shoot a SXS at a SC event, do you feel you'd be disadvantaged or not over other shotgun styles.
 
IF your gun fits, no matter what type, you will do well. That said, most SxS guns are lightweight field guns and can be difficult to shoot well over a long day. Another thing to consider is that a lot of U.S. folks grew up shooting single barrel guns, so the familiarity in their view also leads to greater success.

Shoot whatever you want and like, BUT if your goal is to compete down the road, the single sight plane, especially of the O/U rules the clay games.

If you're just in this for grins and giggles, do what makes it the most fun!
 
To me...a SXS would be a disadvantage...just in terms of the sight plane issues.

Like others have said ...most SXS's...have narrow throats in the grip area, they are often lighter and shorter...none of which I like in a competition gun that I'm going to use to shoot 10 or more boxes a week..in practice and/or competition. But even if I spent the money to have it restocked...so it would be thicker in the grip area...and more of a parallel comb, which I prefer ...and a longer length of pull, and add weight...I still can't get past the barrels being side by side...and its inherent disadvantage ( so I would not spend $4,000 or more to restock a SXS )...when I can buy so many other guns for around $4,000 that will meet the specs I need in a gun.....

The O/U - to me, is just a better tool ...in the field and/or in competition / and I think that is true of most shooters.
( and yes I'm handicapped ..and getting old ..and cranky ...and set in my ways).

My primary Field gun, Sporting Clays, 5 Stand, Skeet gun ...is the Browning Citori, XS Skeet model ( no longer in their catalog )...and I happen to have them in a 12ga, a 20ga ..and in a 28ga and a .410...they all have 30" barrels and all weigh about 8.5 lbs....( now the 20ga, 28ga and .410 ) were all built by Browning on the 20ga receiver...so right out of the box..they are almost one pound lighter than the 12ga versions .....so I add 8 oz under the forend ( I use lead golf club tape)...and I put 8 oz inside the stock ( in the stock bolt hole)...to get that pound back - so all 4 guns feel the same...and I position both of the weights carefully, so the balance point on the gun is not changed.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82011&d=1339792349
the XS Skeet models....
( You will still find a lot of XS Skeet models, new in boxes, still around - they've only been out of the catalog for about a year...and they were made for at least 15 years...or more )....
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For Trap ...I go to a Citori XT O/U with 32" barrels at around 10 lbs...but I use the XT's for Trap only.....they're a little too long and too heavy for a good general purpose gun, in my view.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82013&d=1339792349
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I have other dedicated Trap guns ...like a BT-100....but I don't shoot it much / I like the XT's better.....( but I keep the BT-100 around...)...
http://thefiringline.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=82012&d=1339792349
 
If I were younger ...and still serious about competition....I would buy the Krieghoff K-80 ....with parallel adjustable comb and 30" barrels ....and I would buy the gun with a "Carrier Barrel" ...that cannot be shot, except with full length tubes in it ...( and have a full Tube set...for 20ga, 28ga and .410 )...and then have a stand alone 12ga barrel for the same gun. The idea of the Carrier barrel....is the 12ga...and the carrier barrel, with the tubes in it --- are identical.

Its a better system...( and easier to drag around to shoots )..than 4 guns. Today its about a $ 25,000 proposition..with chokes and everything.....where you can still get 4 stand along Browning Citori's like I have ...
for around $ 16,000 with chokes, 4 cases, etc...

Now if you get carried away ....with fancier stock options on the K-80 and some engraving ...which are both very nice.../ that set for the K-80 can set you back easily around $ 40,000....

I shoot for fun now ....and only a few local and regional touraments..( when the weather is nice )...my eyes are not good ...and I have not won a tournament, not even in my class, for several years...( and I was never that good anyway - I was a class A for awhile / and spent a lot of time in Class B on registered sporting clays shoots. / getting to AA or Master Class would have required a lot more practice and time than I was willing to commit..and still be able to run my business / I could beat some of those guys, on rare occasions...but never month in and month out...

That set of Browning Citori's ...did not hold me back / a SXS, would not have worked nearly as well for me...even if I had it custom stocked to fit me.
 
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in re: the 828U
I know there are a few "experts" that are panning it, but the guys who can actually shoot a bit are very impressed.
Click to expand...
I don't know anyone who can actually shoot who shoots an inertia semi or a light O/U at clays. For a field gun, yes certainly, and I know the Benelli guys will buy it.
I am well past trying to hit the absolute maximum number of clays. I shoot a 20 gauge SxS or a 20 or 28 gauge 1100 99% of the time. I could no doubt do a little better with a 12, I have and the true experts do, but I shoot to have fun now, and I do.
 
We keep discussing Fit in this thread....and one point is Browning today makes at least 25 versions of the Citori line of guns / and I'm admittedly a big Citori fan...but less than 6 of the current line of Citori guns will fit me, right out of the box.

I have field grade Citori's ...with angled combs / 28" barrels in both 12ga and a 20ga.../ and as they are configured at factory, I can't hit anything with them either. But it has nothing to do with the gun ....its about the "Fit"...that Field comb has way too much drop at comb and at the heel for me...so to make that gun hit where I look - I have to fit the comb with an angled comb pad..to make the comb more level...so it hits where I look.

The reason I like the parallel comb models...is shooting in a T shirt in summer...or a sweatshirt and a heavy coat and vest in winter...while my cheek may move up or back on the gun at least an inch...the point of impact does not change based on what I'm wearing. So I can shoot that one gun...with the comb set exactly the same ...summer and winter. I can't do that with any gun that has an angled comb...unless I do something to adjust the way the comb fits me, by season, based on what I need to wear in the field or at tournaments.

Take the gun you own to a pattern board...put in a pair of full chokes...at say at 24 yds...check the point of impact from both barrels. Shoot 2 or three shells out of each barrel at a 3" Dot on pattern board...and see what your point of impact is ....if its not consistent you have some mount issues too...but if its 6 or 8" high or low...that's why the gun doesn't fit you.

You're going to be way ahead...to go to your local club...shoot the current Citori you own...and see what its doing ...and fix that...than messing around with a SXS or anything else.
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All of this talk about the Benelli O/U...in reality, I think its ugly ...but that aside, we won't know much about it until someone we know puts a few thousand shells thru it.../ Beretta and Browning O/U's have earned their reputations on the clay target fields ( my 12ga XS Skeet has well over 500,000 shells thru it - with no issues / and I think its about 13 yrs old ) ....and the current offerings from Benelli might get there / or it might not - although I like Benelli ...it won't necessarily stand up as well as the guns offered by its parent company, Beretta / let alone the Citori line from Browning.
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I don't see anything wrong with the 725 line of the Citori from Browning ..if you find a model that will fit you ! The field or sporting versions ..have way too much drop at the comp / and drop at the heel for me ...and while I've seen their Trap version...I think the comb is too high to suit me for a general purpose gun....
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Beretta's don't fit me ....too thin in the grip area / they tend to be lighter..and while they have 1 or 2 models like the DT??...with parallel combs, I like the heft, the forend, etc better on the XS Skeet Citori. Even little things like the Beavertail forend, vs Schnabel forend...make a big difference to me..and to most experienced shooters....
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But a lot of this stuff is personal.....I'm 6'5" and about 290 lbs..with big hands / my shooting buddy is 5'10" and 175 lbs soaking wet.../ he thinks my Brownings, 30" barrels at 8.5 lbs are like swinging big sewer pipes...they're too heavy and clumsy to him / he shoots a K-80 with 26" barrels at around 9 lbs...I think its way too short and the extra weight doesn't help - it just doesn't feel right to me.
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When I shoot my Benelli Super Sport semi-auto in 12ga, 30" barrel its only 7.2 lbs and even with the 30" barrel, its too "whippy" to me...and even though I have the optional comb pad, etc on it making it a parallel comb..its too light. So I add about a pound under the forend...and another pound inside the stock...to give it more heft...and it smooths it out for me.

I can't shoot one round with my O/U's ....and then go to the Benelli ...and maintain my scores....it takes 10 or 12 targets for me to get used to the lighter gun again -- and the different trigger -- and just the little things on how it feels. But once I settle in - my scores come back up ( mid 90's on skeet out of 100 / and in low 80's on sporting ) especially these days is all I can do....

So what suits me ....or what suits my buddy ...may not be what suits you ...
 
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Excellent advice BigJim. I'll add that I shot a parallel comb Beretta semi auto for several years and used to change the recoil pad from summer to winter to keep the LOP the same for the clothing I was wearing.
 
As has been beat to death, FIT is what it is all about - whether you prefer the trap-style parallel comb that BigJim likes, or a regular stock with a DAH, DAC, etc. that works for you. Since my namesake sport mandates using a low gun, the ability to transition from low mount to a proper mount to hit your target is crucial. For some, that is the stock Jim mentioned while for me, it is not. Pre-mounting is one aspect, low gun totally different, and I will switch guns at times if there is a choice.
I see a lot of trap/skeet/sporting guys not try FITASC because they are afraid of the low mount and they think every shot is a million yards away. It IS challenging, and it is best shot with a gas gun or O/U versus a pump or SxS (like the way I brought it back on topic? ;)); but if you really like a hunting oriented challenge or to get ready for some serious hunting, give it a try.
 
Disclaimer: I am a dyed in the wool side by side guy.

But I have owned and shot about everything. I have tried several over and unders, and I have always ended up selling them. Yeah, they are probably the way to go for the really serious clay shooter, but if you are a live bird hunter, then frankly, they can't hold a candle to a fine side by side, IMHO. The problem is there is a whole lot of over and unders that are available for $1600 to 2000 dollars but practically no new fine side by sides in that price range, so the budget mined shooter who wants a fine side by side must search the used markets for older guns, with usually fixed chokes and quite often poorly sized stocks with too much drop to fit the shooter used to shooting more modern guns. But then again I can't shoot most over and unders that well because the stocks are too straight for me and they are balanced like a fence post, but that's just me.

Also, if everyone (so called experts) of the never see-um barrel crowd, never see or aim their shotgun then why in the heck does it make any difference if the sight plane is different on a side by side? Now for me, yes it makes a difference, but I go the other direction. My master eye is on the wrong side, and I do aim my shotguns, but I much prefer the concave checkered rib of a fine side by side, and I guess I have been shooting shotguns with too much drop by modern standards for so long that I like them and shoot them best. But I don't much care for a raised rib on a side by side, although some of mine do have mild, slightly raised ribs.

At any rate, there is still only one sight plane on a side by side, not two.

I can shoot the narrow rib of a single barrel gun, pretty good, when clays are the target, but I loose the narrow rib on a fast moving quail or pheasant, and will not shoot a single barrel as good under hunting conditions, because I want to see that mass of those double barrels out there, either that maybe an old Cutts Compensator on a Browning A5 or something.

Sorry, I am rambling on, anyway, buy a gun and pattern it, see if it shoots where you are looking. If it don't, trade it for another, until you find a gun that you really like and shoots where it looks for you. Then learn how to hit moving targets with it. Sounds simple don't it. Or buy one and modify the stock until it shoots where you look, and then you can practice until you can hit moving targets with it, but if you have patterned your gun and know exactly where it hits for you, then you will have the confidence you need to move forward with you shooting.

Last word, if you want to try a side by side, then by all means do, but be wary of the cheap ones, get a nice one, who knows you might get hooked on them, and frankly I hardly shoot anything else, anymore, but that's just me.
 
Side-by-Side or Over/Under

You guys are great! Thanks for all the advise especial BigJim. I'm not planning on Competition shooting just monthly gatherings with co-workers and friends. I think an O/U is the way to go for higher scores but with that said I love the look of a SxS. Will be at Moore n Moore Sunday morning trying my luck with my Rem-1100. Never shot an entire round (100 targets) with it.
 
Now for me, yes it makes a difference, but I go the other direction. My master eye is on the wrong side, and I do aim my shotguns,
Click to expand...

Perhaps you should try shooting from your dominant side.......;)
 
Focus on having fun on Sunday...and being with your buddies / and stay with the 1100 --- ( and work on your fundamentals ).../ and keep a little notebook in your vest ( make notes on what you're missing on each station / and why )...

and over the next 10 rounds...over 2 or 3 months maybe - see what the trend is / but don't be in a hurry to change guns right now. Shoot some Skeet in between / and some Trap too...and make notes on those rounds as well..

An experienced shooter like our friend FITASC ...can change from gun to gun / and change his gun mount ...and get away with it. But for new shooters / or shooters struggling with consistency - that's not a great idea.
 
Believe me Jim, it isn't easy, but my namesake game MANDATES a low gun. IF the gun fits, all is well; but if - like me - you gain a few pounds, suddenly you find you favorite gun doesn't work like it should a few years ago.
 
darkgael: that pic confirms it for me...too much metal for the clay target to hide behind for too long.

That's a really great photo, though!
 
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I shoot with both eyes open so no place for anything to hide. I have shot several rounds of skeet - 25/25 - with an occluded optical sight; left eye sees normal and right eye only sees red dot - the brain does the rest. I saw Tom Knapp shoot behind his back. He said all your brain has to do is learn the correct sight picture and it was hard to argue in the face of the evidence.
 
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