Showing weakness in mid-east will only get us this....

Funny how they can burn just about anything of ours, including indiscriminately killing our troops when ever they get a chance, but shooting at a book is the worst thing that can be done.
 
how sad

so many keep seeing all Iraqi, all Muslims or all those from the ME as the bad guys. Maybe its time to shut this thread down like the original thread.
 
The Colonel's act of kissing the Koran was an act of submission.
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To you.

You're making a mistake that's unfortunately very common in the way we've been handling Iraq, and one of the reasons why we can't get a handle on the place: you're applying your own cultural bias to a foreign culture, and assume it's universal all over the globe. These people don't think like you or I do. They come from a totally different cultural background, and if we want to win them as allies (and successfully defeat the bad guys among them), then we need to understand them. That's not a sign of weakness, just the smart thing to do.

Have you bothered to research what the gesture of kissing a Koran means in their culture? (Of course you haven't, because you don't care one way or the other.)
 
Marko Kloos
Have you bothered to research what the gesture of kissing a Koran means in their culture?
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I'm not concerned with what the gesture means to the muslims. I am more concerned about the soldiers that are being forced to submit in such a way as kissing a holy book in which it states that they, themselves.. the kissers of the book, are infidels. I do have a problem with that... absolutely. I certainly wouldn't expect to see a Muslim apologizing in a like manner, you know, kissing the holy bible. Do you honestly think that is ever going to happen?

As for the koran... I know a bit about it. I'm a Christian. After the twin-towers were taken down, I decided to learn more about the muslim faith. About a year after 9/11, I read an English version of the koran. Well, I didn't read all 112 (I think) chapters of it, but I read most of them. I read about commands to be tolerant and I also read a lot about being intolerant. There is a lot of talk of infidels and the koran makes it explicit that infidels are not to be respected. At other times, it suggests that tolerance of infidels should be applied. Like I said... a bit confusing to me... but then, so is the Christian Bible in some places.

I was interested to learn that muslims share a belief in some of the same biblical characters found in the Old Testament... Abraham being a main one. There is even a "chapter" about Jesus. They don't consider Jesus a Messiah, rather, they consider him a prophet... but he is written of with respect.

Marko Kloos
(Of course you haven't, because you don't care one way or the other.)
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In that regard How can you judge me in that manner based on what I wrote in this thread? You don't know me.

I'm very surprised that a moderator would get so personal like you have here. Getting personal with me as you have done does not set a good example for the rest of the users of this forum. :confused:
 
To you.

You're making a mistake that's unfortunately very common in the way we've been handling Iraq, and one of the reasons why we can't get a handle on the place: you're applying your own cultural bias to a foreign culture, and assume it's universal all over the globe. These people don't think like you or I do. They come from a totally different cultural background, and if we want to win them as allies (and successfully defeat the bad guys among them), then we need to understand them. That's not a sign of weakness, just the smart thing to do.

Have you bothered to research what the gesture of kissing a Koran means in their culture? (Of course you haven't, because you don't care one way or the other.)
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Exactly. It must be judged in the context of their culture, not ours. Though no, I'm probably not the one to do it (as I'm only passingly familiar with it)...but my guess is that whoever coached this officer on what he should do was a bit more familiar.

I've spent enough time around Iraqis to know that all their cultural norms are just...different. It only takes a couple of times having a guy sit next to you, put his hand on your knee, and lean in nice and close while talking to you to realize this. Heck, that's about 90% of how far I got with my first girlfriend. But over there, it's just the norm. They even trained us for this before we shipped, because they wanted to try and suppress what would be my first instinct, which I'll assume is about the same as most here (which is him being lucky if only his feelings are hurt).

It's natural to view pretty much anything you see or hear about through your own cultural lens, but before passing judgment in a situation like it's appropriate to find out how it appears in their culture. Since it's in their country and an apology being offered to them. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know, but then I'm not the one saying it's wrong.
 
To you.

You're making a mistake that's unfortunately very common in the way we've been handling Iraq, and one of the reasons why we can't get a handle on the place: you're applying your own cultural bias to a foreign culture, and assume it's universal all over the globe. These people don't think like you or I do. They come from a totally different cultural background, and if we want to win them as allies (and successfully defeat the bad guys among them), then we need to understand them. That's not a sign of weakness, just the smart thing to do.

Have you bothered to research what the gesture of kissing a Koran means in their culture? (Of course you haven't, because you don't care one way or the other.)
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:)

Thank you.
 
I imagine our soldiers must be confused when they see their buddies killed and maimed by IEDs and then see this Colonel kissing the Koran in a show of submission.

Call it what you will but it can't be helping our cause in anyway beyond appeasing the fanaticism that the administration felt would erupt because of the act of this one soldier.

The president just spoke in the Israeli Knesset about the dangers of appeasement. I agree with him. Of course, appeasement comes in many forms. IMO, this example of the Colonel kissing the Koran is a form of appeasement.
 
FireMax,

appeasing the people on whose goodwill we rely to make the place into something other than a hardline theocracy is not a bad thing. Those are the people you want to appease.

Of course, if you parse "Muslim" as "enemy", then anything other than shooting up their Holy Book and telling them to suck it up is appeasement.

When you've done something wrong, an apology is not a sign of weakness, but one of maturity. Saying "I'm sorry" is the mature and sensible thing to do in this case. It's not as emotionally gratifying as chest-beating, but it's a prerequisite for staying on good terms with the people you have wronged. Kissing the Koran is simply a culturally-appropriate gesture that has meaning to them. It's a shame you don't seem to want to understand this.

Speaking of the President, he just apologized for the Koran incident as well. Is he "appeasing the enemy"?

Look, there's a time and a use for both the carrot and the stick. If the horse doesn't do what you want it to do, you can try the carrot, or you can denounce any use of the carrot as "appeasement". Then the only thing left to do is to break out the stick again and beat the poor thing to death. You won't have "appeased" the horse, but you sure as hell aren't getting where you want to go, either.
 
In that regard How can you judge me in that manner based on what I wrote in this thread? You don't know me.

I'm very surprised that a moderator would get so personal like you have here. Getting personal with me as you have done does not set a good example for the rest of the users of this forum.
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Huh? How have I judged you? I stated that you don't care about the meaning of the gesture one way or the other. You then replied thusly:

I'm not concerned with what the gesture means to the muslims.
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I fail to see where I a.) got personal with you, or b.) made an inaccurate statement about your mindset.
 
How did the Iraqis find out that the soldier was shooting a Koran?

If we hadnt made a public incident of this, they would have never known, and the soldier could have been quietly disciplined. This would have been better for everyone.
 
From what I've been reading, he was practicing at a range used by Iraqi police, and he left the shot-up Koran on the range, complete with some naughty words written into it.
 
This issue of the Colonel in Iraq kissing the Koran is very important. I say this because a new story has come out where an Iraqi Islamic Party is now demanding more punishment for this soldier.

That was my contention about this issue. Our Colonel kissing the Koran was an embarrassment. It showed weakness. It solved nothing, but rather, probably emboldened our enemies to try to get further political concessions from us in regard to this soldier.
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And you think if the Colonel hadn't kissed the Koran, the same group would have been silent, and not called for more punishment? OK.:rolleyes:

I am more concerned about the soldiers that are being forced to submit in such a way as kissing a holy book in which it states that they, themselves.. the kissers of the book, are infidels.
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Show me ANYTHING that even hints that he was FORCED, threatened, or coerced in any way to kiss the Koran, as opposed to him deciding all on his own to do it, because he knew what it means to them, and thus, thought it was a smart move to ease tensions. I'll be waitng for a link to a quote from the man himself.
 
As a Vietnam vet I find that sending soldiers in to be social workers and ambassadors does not work especially while occupying a country to believe we can change the minds of people of all countries is somewhat naive. When I was in various countries I worked not to be the "ugly American", however we seem to spend our time apologizing to various groups within our country as well as others personally I don't see it working.

In my opinion we need to cease nation building be the best country in the world with a super strong military, (be kind but carry a big stick).

What the solider did was wrong but for an active commander to apologize was incorrect it should have came from our political leaders, in the end I doubt it will make an difference or save one soldiers life.
 
IBTF - might it been seen as real than rather than surface weakness to go to the country that supplied most of the 9/11 terrorists and funds religious schools that teach hatred and ask them to please produce more oil?

Or have your vice president go sailing on the yacht of a similar country?

Perhaps, if some president had launched a Manhattan like project to get us of foreign energy supplies, that would have been seen as strength?

But that would disrupt the private interest profit stream of said administration. Never underestimate the profit motive over producting the country.

This thread is just an opportunity for low level chest pounding over a stupid act.
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Thank you, Glenn. You've pretty much summed up my opinion on the entire Middle East issue.
 
Unfortunately, even then he was planning his Freudian attempt to show up Daddy with an attack on Iraq.

BTW, as far as kissing the Koran - how does the GOP deal with his kissing and hand holding of the Saudi Princes? Isn't that against their manly precepts?

How about the military saying they were going to kill or arrest Sadr and then it never happened?

How about Bush saying he didn't care about Osama anymore? Did that show weakness?
 
How about Obama saying that if necessary we should go after Osama in Pakistan and the Bushies getting all hissy about offending our 'allies'?

On a roll here! Omission Accomplished!
 
How about Obama saying that if necessary we should go after Osama in Pakistan and the Bushies getting all hissy about offending our 'allies'?

On a roll here! Omission Accomplished!
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Exactly.
 
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