Showing weakness in mid-east will only get us this....

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FireMax

New member
Guys, antipas shut down the other thread about this issue because of inflammatory remarks so let's tone it down so we can discuss this in a civil manner.

This issue of the Colonel in Iraq kissing the Koran is very important. I say this because a new story has come out where an Iraqi Islamic Party is now demanding more punishment for this soldier.

That was my contention about this issue. Our Colonel kissing the Koran was an embarrassment. It showed weakness. It solved nothing, but rather, probably emboldened our enemies to try to get further political concessions from us in regard to this soldier.

Showing weakness in the Muslim world is always a bad idea, IMO.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.quran/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Iraq's most powerful Sunni Arab political party on Monday said a U.S. soldier's desecration of the Quran, the Muslim holy book, requires the "severest of punishments," not just an apology and a military reassignment.

The Iraqi Islamic Party, the movement of Iraqi Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi, condemned what it said was a "blatant assault on the sanctities of Muslims all over the world."

An American staff sergeant who was a sniper section leader used a Quran for target practice on May 9.

The U.S. commander in Baghdad on Saturday issued a formal apology and read a letter of apology from the shooter.

The sergeant has been relieved of duty as a section leader "with prejudice," officially reprimanded by his commanding general, dismissed from his regiment and redeployed -- reassigned to the United States.

But the Iraqi Islamic Party -- which said it reacted to the news "with deep resentment and indignation" -- wants the "severest of punishments" for the action.

"I have asked that first this apology be officially documented; second a guarantee from the U.S. military to inflict the maximum possible punishment on this soldier so it would be a deterrent for the rest of the soldiers in the future."

A tribal leader said "the criminal act by U.S. forces" took place at a shooting range at the Radhwaniya police station on Baghdad's western outskirts. After the shooters left, an Iraqi policeman found a target marked in the middle of the bullet-riddled Quran.

On Saturday, Maj. Gen. Jeffery Hammond, commander of U.S. forces in Baghdad, appeared at an apology ceremony flanked by leaders from Radhwaniya. Video Watch as the U.S. formally apologizes »

"I come before you here seeking your forgiveness," Hammond said to tribal leaders and others gathered. "In the most humble manner, I look in your eyes today, and I say please forgive me and my soldiers."

Another military official kissed a Quran and presented it as "a humble gift" to the tribal leaders.

Hammond also read from the shooter's letter: "I sincerely hope that my actions have not diminished the partnership that our two nations have developed together. ... My actions were shortsighted, very reckless and irresponsible, but in my heart [the actions] were not malicious."

Hammond said, "The actions of one soldier were nothing more than criminal behavior. I've come to this land to protect you, to support you -- not to harm you -- and the behavior of this soldier was nothing short of wrong and unacceptable."

The soldier reportedly claimed he wasn't aware the book was the Quran, but U.S. officials rejected his assertion.

Tribal leaders, dignitaries and local security officials attended the ceremony, while residents carried banners and chanted slogans, including, "Yes, yes to the Quran" and "America out, out."
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I agree.

There is not one documented instance where bending over backwards for Islamo-fascist groups and granting concessions has created lasting peace or understanding.

Conversely, every time they get their butts swatted by Israel, they (state-sponsored islamic terrorist groups) leave them alone for a good long time and don't try the same strategy again.

As long as the battle revolves around religious fundamentalism, the only sure way to victory is through strength. That's how it was with Hirohito's Japan and the kamikaze fighter pilots, and that's the path to victory with fundamentalist militant Islam.
 
Weak?

I think taking a sacred object and treating it with contempt (use it as a target) then kissing it and showing formality in an apology doesn't show weakness. If anything, the instant change in attitude shows either we really just don't care enough to have thought about it to begin with (contempt for the object) or the apology was simply part of a protocol, not from actual desire to apologize.

In neither of these situations is there any weakness shown. Just a complete lack of respect.

BTW, respecting an enemy is not a sign of weakness. It is a sign of wisdom.
 
path to victory with fundamentalist militant Islam.
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Indeed. But not every Arab/muslim is a fundamentalist militant hell bent on destroying the great satan. I'm sure the vast majority of Iraqi's wish the US, al qaeda and the Iranians would just eff off home and let them get on with their lives. They want, freedom, maybe democracy and their daughters to go to school.

Shooting up the Koran is an insult to those people, the ones the US is trying to get on board. Stupidity should be a crime and that idiot is guilty.
 
SEC DEF
BTW, respecting an enemy is not a sign of weakness. It is a sign of wisdom.
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Maybe you are mistaking "respect" for "submit". The Colonel's act of kissing the Koran was an act of submission. You may refer to the act as respectful if you wish, differences of opinion abound.
 
WildAlaska
isn't that one of the places that Ron Paul wants to abandon?
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Let me clarify... I agree with Ron Paul that we should not be in Iraq. We simply cannot continue to borrow money from China to fund a war there when the gains are suspect. Please, I don't want to argue the war or anything, I just want to make sure that my position on this matter is clear so no one thinks I am flip-flopping.

As far as our being there, if the USA is going to commit troops somehwere, even if I disagree, then I would hope that they are allowed to act from a position of strength and not weakness. Showing weakness to an enemy, and in the Mid East especially, is inviting trouble.
 
I'm sure the vast majority of Iraqi's wish the US, al qaeda and the Iranians would just eff off home and let them get on with their lives. They want, freedom, maybe democracy and their daughters to go to school.
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I'm sure the first part is true, though I've never been there.

But as to the last part ... I'm sure there were plenty of father's in the taliban that support the bombing of girl's schools. Plenty of other fathers who kept their daughters home and didn't fight the oppressive government that kept them there.
 
Maybe you are mistaking "respect" for "submit". The Colonel's act of kissing the Koran was an act of submission. You may refer to the act as respectful if you wish, differences of opinion abound.
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I do not find it submission or respectful. I find it insulting.

Submission would have been trying the soldier under their laws (what would happen to an ordinary muslim that did the same thing?)

Submission would entail even listening to what they are complaining about. We are ignoring them and superficially responding (kissing the book). Hardly submission.
 
But as to the last part ... I'm sure there were plenty of father's in the taliban that support the bombing of girl's schools. Plenty of other fathers who kept their daughters home and didn't fight the oppressive government that kept them there.
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Hey, I'm down with wiping the taliban off the face of the earth but Iraq was a different place. Saddam was a scumbag but he was a secular scumbag and there was some level of freedom for women that doesn't exist now. (And yes I know, he was a mass murdering yadda yadda.)
 
The Muslims are going to need to evolve on their own, the US pushing forth democracy won't work until their is a big enough section of Muslims who want to fight for it.
 
what the soldier did was wrong. apologizing to the village people in the humblest of ways was the right thing to do. punishing soldier the way the US military finds suitable is what needs to be done and should not be the concern of Iraqi Islamic Party. his butt belongs to the US military not the Iraqi Islamic Party. this soldier did a stupid thing and no doubt will be made an example of. i just hope the next time the American Flag is burned in an Iraqi street the same respect is shown by the muslim community and Iraqi government.
 
IBTL - might it been seen as real than rather than surface weakness to go to the country that supplied most of the 9/11 terrorists and funds religious schools that teach hatred and ask them to please produce more oil?

Or have your vice president go sailing on the yacht of a similar country?

Perhaps, if some president had launched a Manhattan like project to get us of foreign energy supplies, that would have been seen as strength?

But that would disrupt the private interest profit stream of said administration. Never underestimate the profit motive over protecting the country.

This thread is just an opportunity for low level chest pounding over a stupid act.
 
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I'm agnostic. I personally don't care if someone shoots a book no matter what the title is, and if there is a God I doubt he really cares either.

As for the issue of the officer kissing the Koran, if he is a Muslim then I don't see problem with it. If he is of some other religion and was coerced into this display then I have a definite problem with it.

I have no ill will against the sniper. This is a guy who lives everyday of his life by the motto "One shot, one kill". This is a guy who has been trained to exterminate people at his own convienence once conditions are to his liking. So he shot a book and now he's considered a criminal by the same people that task him to eliminate human targets one at a time? That is disgraceful.
 
it was obviously a dumb thing to do but what did he code of the UCMJ did he actually break to result in any punishment?
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Article 134...it goes by many names. General Article, Catch-All Article, "Don't be an idiot" Article, etc. This was discussed over in the other thread. I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that this act could probably be covered under it.
 
even without the UCMJ

the guy who got to clean up this mess can probably get the shooter transferred to one of those great duty stations. Say guarding a radio repeater on an island in the Bearing sea over the winter. A one person duty station. And you can be sure there are many favored placed to send the shooter where he would rather be in prison.
 
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