Should you practice with your self defense gun? Answer Absolutely not.

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Wild Romanian

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Practicing with a gun that you may have to rely on to save your life is an extremely bad idea.

Weapons are machines and subject to failure from wear and tear.

As a matter of fact even some manufactures warn that their pistols may only be funtional for so many rounds.

This is very evident in economically priced small hand guns.

Smith & Wessons little .380 Sigma is given a service life of only 2,000 rounds.

The expensive .32 seecamp is given a life of 1,000 rounds.

A recent post by an angry Kel-Tech owner said he only got an 800 round life out of his hand gun.

Does this mean all small hand guns are junk. No of course not. They were made to be carried much and shot seldom or not at all.

This post is not an attempt in any way to enrage any owner of the above mentioned weapons (I own some of them myself). I do not have the space or time to mention dozens more. I do not need to. I am just giving a random example to make a valid point.

A small handguns size works against them in terms of their being able to stand up to the tremedous pounding that they take whe actually firing them.

Blow back pistols in my experience have even less life than the small lock breached pistols. I have had frames warp even on some very expensive pocket auto's which jamed the gun up tight.

The smart man or woman practices with a .22 or with a duplicate weapon of the handgun he or she will use in a defensive situation if the need arises.

There are people out there that have been extremely branwashed by the Hollywood movies. They really believe that a hand gun will last forever with no maintenance and that they can actually use it as a hammer or as a prybar. No amount of argument can convince them other wise. This information is not for them. They will never use it.

Many not being mechanically inclined do not even see the wear and damage they often inflict on their weapons by dry firing, slamming slides home on an empty chamber or flicking revolver cylinders closed. The list of abuse is endless but I think if you are reasonably intelligent you have already got the picture. There is no such thing as a super quality arm that can take such abuse for very long without suffering enough damage to eventually make it fail at the critical moment.

I strongly recommend that those of you that are about to purchase a new weapon for self defense only shoot between 100 to 200 rounds to break in your pistol and then shoot it no more forever.

Be extremely careful about what type of oil you use on it. On a self defense gun use it sparingly and constantly monitor the oil to see if it is evaporating and becoming sticky or hard.

Oil proof your ammo by using nail polish or polyurethane. Put a small drop on the primer and paint a cirlce around the junction of the bullet and cartridge mouth.

It has been my unfortunate experience to find out that factory oil proofing of ammo often does not work very well.

Do not let this post discourage you from purchasing the small handgun. This is the weapon that you will most likely carry on an everyday basis because it is convenient to carry. Despite what all the hot air blowhards tell you they themselves often leave the large size weapons sitting at home in the drawer because of their weight and their uncomfortability when carried. When they need it most , out on the street, it will usually be found sitting home in the drawer or safe or gun cabinet.

Do not worry or be talked out of the small handgun because of its small caliber. Forget what you have been told by the bloward armchair experts. It is bullet placement and penetration that stop a person not large caliber or high velocity.

If you think that the lowly .25acp or .22 rimfire has no penetrations shoot one throught some 2x4's sometime and it will shock you on how much penetration they have especially with solid bullets.

Remember the .25 in the pocket is worth many more times than the 50 caliber super blaster you left at home because of its uncomfortable size and weight.

All this information has come from observing people and the situations I have observed them in over a life time of shooting and carrying firearms.

For the reasonably intelligent and thoughtful person this information can and will help you immensely but nothing will help the other class of gun owner. They are the ones who will succum to fate with either a non-functional weapon in their hand at the time of crises or no weapon at all. W.R.
 
WR, there's a lot of meat on your argument's bone. However, it's suitable for an audience which IMO is somewhat different from most of the handgun folks here at TFL. I say, "most", not "all". You do indeed have some good points for the Newbies among us.

Now, I fully agree that it's wise to have some notion of the "life-cycle" of one's primary carry-critter. And there's sure no reason to beat the poor sucker to death. That doesn't mean, though, that a dozen boxes of ammo a year through a GlockEleven or BeretSig is gonna hurt anything.

Life is easy for a handloader. Almost anything will survive innumerable light loads, so you can perfect eye-finger-sights coordination. Plinkers don't hurt my LW Commander or my Model 36.

OTOH, my old GI Gummint Models can stand a whole bunch of whanging, banging and clanging.

:), Art
 
I respectfully but absolutely disagree. Your defensive weapon should be the one you know the best, and the one you practice with the most. That is how you build competence, and that is how you demonstrate competence. If you are concerned with wearing a weapon out, get two identical weapons and use both for carry and practice. As for parts failures, how do you know that the hidden manufacturing defect will fail within 200 rounds, rather than 201 rounds, or 2,001? Maybe you didn't assemble the weapon exactly right after you cleaned it following the break in? Maybe a spring became crimped during reassembly and will fail?
 
In agreement with buzz_knox.
To ensure reliability I keep a new extra recoil spring for my 1911 in the store-bought package and compare the length to the one in the gun every time I clean it. If it's lost a coil or two in length, it gets replaced and another new spring bought the same day. Usually takes about 2500-3000 rounds before replacement is necessary.

Denny
 
The flip side is to get a sturdy sidearm and practice with it instead of a questionable bullet launcher. Art, as always, brings up a good point of reloading or buying target loads which should, in a quality firearm, last through a whole lot of shooting. I decided a long time ago that because the M1911A1 is a very sturdy mechanism with easily replacable parts, that it would be my carry weapon, and for the Texas summer, an Officers Model would give me everything I needed in a smaller package. I did not go to an aluminum frame on either-the weight to me is a comforting thing and does not inhibit movement. Maybe I do pay a price, but I practice with what I carry, so I forsee no surprises in load selection, and the oldest one I carry is over 75,000 rounds with no weapons failure. That alone gives me a secure feeling, and will likely keep going for a few hundred thousand more rounds provided I keep it clean and keep up with the springs. What more do you need?
 
Wild R, I agree with you in principle. Murphy says you'll get a failure at the worst possible time. Your carry weapon must be in "known good" condition.

However, I feel comfortable that I can assess the health of my carry gun, and replace parts before they need replacing.

I also feel confident that the gun will work if I need it. Since I shot it recently, cleaned it afterward and inspected it for wear, I know that it will function when needed. I know how the load in it performs. I know how the sights are adjusted. I know I tend to shoot low/left when rapid firinging. I know the max range at which I would attempt a difficult aimed shot.

These benfits, for me, outweigh the risk that I will fail to replace a spring before it needs replacing, etc.

Its good advice to be aware of the service life of your weapon, to avoid unnecessary wear, and to practice preventative maintenance.

Other options include having a spare "shooter" of the same type (though I would still shoot the "carry unit" occasionally, as all guns are individuals). Having an experienced 'smith evaluate the gun's wear from time to time is also a good idea.
 
I see the points of all posts made so far, in the end to be sure you will have a functioning firearm should the need arise, carry a keltec p32 or similar small gun as a BUG. Pretty slim chance both will fail given decent maintenance. My G30 fail on me for some reason (ya, right) but if it does, the Guardian .380 comes out.
 
Some people can tear up ANYTHING in record time! Others can make anything last a lifetime. I keep repeating that, at age 68, I've NEVER had a gun fail! And I reload to all levels of power! (I don't know how many MILLIONS of dry-fires my guns have had!) True, the high-pressure rounds cause more wear, but the manufacturer's also use excellent steel. The only problems that I've had were with a 1911A1, and that was due to my own lack of knowledge. Once I understood the gun, it became totally reliable. (Amazing how good that gun can be IF you quit trying to improve on its design!)
 
I just bought a Glock and was under the impression it would last forever (or at least outlast me). I clean it after every use and keep track of the rounds shot. Are there any general rules of thumb regarding maintenance and parts replacement (e.g. new springs every 5,000 rounds, new barrel every XX rounds, etc.)? Would the frame ever wear out, or are the springs and barrel the main components that would need replacement?

1,000 round lifespan for a Seecamp? I guess I won't be getting one of those!
 
buzz_knox: I'm not disagreeing, so much as saying the old "there's more to it than that".

A one-gun guy has no choice but to follow what you're saying. A guy like me with several of the same style, who does his own smithing on them, is in a different situation. Other folks may well be somewhere in between.

So, I commonly check my carry gun for function and inspect it for any visible problems. Cracks, springs, whatever. I use a similar feel and function gun for lengthy range sessions. And heck, face it: I've been "messin' with" handguns for so long that almost anything just feels "nacherl" to my hand. The old "muscle memory" BS again, I guess. Redhawk, Blackhawk, Lilliput, Gummint--it's all just "Front sight, press." to me.

This reminds me of my gripe with a lot of federal government law: No such thing as "one size fits all". Same in a lot of these threads, in that not all the factually-correct info applies to all of us here.

Back to the point: My opinion is that any mechanical system will be more likely to function if its history is of relatively low frequency of low-stress use, with good maintenance. This includes backhoes, floor-jacks and guns. Heck, maybe even crowbars and anvils. :D

:), Art
 
WR,

Wow - good thing we live in a modern society where you are allowed to survive regardless of your actual abilities or intelligence level...

I find your premise to be absolutely assinine. Handguns are not all the same. The exact same model can have different handling characteristics, ammo sensitivities, point of aim, etc. What would you trust more - the handgun that has accompanied you to the range for practice hundreds of times - or the special "carry" gun that is only shot a few hundred rounds worth of shooting?

I'l take the gun that I am familiar with and has proven itself through long service - thank you.

Proper maintenance and familiarity with every intimate detail of your weapon's operating system and parts will allow the prudent shooter to identify and correct any possible parts breakage at least as well (if not better) than taking the lazy man's way out and just not shooting it much so as to keep anything from wearing out or needing cleaned/replaced/adjusted!

The only time I find this concept to be a good idea is in the defensive edged weapon department, where you would not want to ding up a great edge in training drills.

Other than that - practive with your carry gun - if nothing else, even more so than any other gun you own! your defensive weapon is the one that will save your life or someone else's all the others are just for grins!


canis
 
I agree with WR. In order to maintain a level of competency which is at least fairly mediocre, I train with my carry gun continuously. Years ago I adopted the policy put forth by Coronach: buy two; shoot the heck out of one and carry the other. With a little bit of shopping around, you can usually find a "used" version of your carry gun at a reasonable price. Maybe not quite as tricked out, or maybe with a steel frame rather than alloy, or etc. But close enough to fine tune your manual of arms for your carry gun. And don't forget to do the same for the mags! Stay safe.
 
Wild Romanian . . .

I respectfully disagree with your conclusion, although I certainly endorse many of your individual points and your thesis that excellent care and maintenance for handguns is critical -- and far from universally practiced.

What I suspect you may have not fully considered is the SYSTEM -- not firearms alone -- provides personal defense; it includes: (1) the weapon, (2) the ammunition, and the (3) the trained and ready INDIVIDUAL. Without question, your approach could optimize the firearms element of the system, but what about the personal element?

A key precept in warfare readiness is "train like you'll fight". This is the basis for most military combat training. If one uses a different firearm -- even a similar manufacturer and model -- he simply cannot optimize his personal training and readiness because he isn't "training as he'll fight".

Now we all make compromises to this general rule; for example, I frequently practice with cheap .38 Special rounds and keep my KGP-141 loaded with .357 magnums. However, I shoot enough .357 mags to be well aware of the differences. Further, I shoot them from the same revolver, so I am very cognizant of that handgun's proclivities (such as its unique trigger break, hand feel, and sight picture).

I suggest a compromise:

> First, buy only outstanding handguns with exceptional quality, reliability and durability.

> Second, believe what Art Eatman said: "Back to the point: My opinion is that any mechanical system will be more likely to function if its history is of relatively low frequent of low-stress use, with good maintenance."

> Third, practice with what you will use for personal defense -- but exercise judiciousness in how you practice, in care and maintenance, in firearm's selection, and in routine inspection.
 
Some meat on the bone

Depends on the gun. Some of the mentioned guns could be practiced to death in 2 or 3 years. I have a Kel-Tec P32, but I practice a lot more with my Beretta 21A in 22 LR. Similar guns. Keeps the spitwad from breaking down. Still clean the P32 regularly.

My 1911s, even my Officers' Model, I figure will outlast me. So I shoot all three, in rotation. Same with the CZ-75.

My S&W mod 649 mostly practices with .38 specials but eats .357 magnum when it wants a real meal.

Some meat on the bone. You guys should consider that even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Regards.
 
Hey, WR, whenever I read one of your posts I feel slighty embarassed to be R. That aside, I have to disagree with you. A number of firearms are made to last. Glocks, Berettas, most 1911, CZ's etc are made to work and keep on working. For some reason you forget that most of these guns have their origin in military arms which one actualy expects to use under lots of stress and with little maintainance.

Granted, I wouldnt pick a zinc Raven as my primary weapon and then practice a lot with it, but then again I wouldnt pick a Raven to begin with. The point being that if you pick a decent firearm this is not really a problem. My CZ75B has 3200 rounds with 0 failures. And you know why? Because every time I shoot it I take it appart and I clean it and I inspect all stressed areas and pick it over with a fine comb until I am sadisfied that it is ready to go back into my night stand and save my life.

It is hard to argue that you can take a 1911, or a CZ or a Colt Trooper, or about any Smith revolver, prove that it is reliable, and then shoot it to the point where you cant trust it, unless a) you are not taking care of it by cleaning it an replacing springs when requiered or b) you shoot over 50-100k rounds, enough to wear out the barrels or some other mechanical bits to that point.

However it is not hard to see how a gun which has 200 rounds through it and then sits in a drawer, can become rusted, dry, covered in lint, not to mention that a firearm with only 200 rounds throught it doesnt enspire much comfidence to me.

Yeah, so my CZ is black, ugly, begining to show some finish wear, has gone through 3k+ rounds and it cost less then most semi autos. Guess what. I works. It worked the first day, it worked every day since, and I trust it to work when I need it.

Just my opionion. Frankly you can have your own. But preaching like your opinion is the word of God on a forum where new shooters come for reliable information is not safe or well advised. Keep that in mind next time you think you know best.

Loch
 
Try as I might, I can never make sense of WR's posts.

Maybe he is an agent sent by HCI to confuse gun owners.

Come on WR, what the heck are you talking about?

Hey, I have a great idea, let's all stop taking our carry guns to the range.

I'm also going to sell my .40 Glock because of the abnormally high pressure of the round.

Next WR post: Why cleaning a handgun is bad.

Someone stop me before I get sarcastic.
 
"The old "muscle memory" BS again, I guess. Redhawk, Blackhawk, Lilliput, Gummint--it's all just "Front sight, press." to me"

Wow, Art, it's all "Front sight, press." If it's just "front sight and press" then your dead if you carry either the Blackhawk or the "Gummint". Both of their operations are quite different than the Redhawk. Did you forget to type that part in or just not think about it? Will you remember what you're carrying when you have a BG at 7 yards and closing fast? Will you know what the POI is for the weapon you're carrying? Is it different than the one you were carrying yesterday?
 
:rolleyes:

If that's the case, should you even CARRY your self-defense gun?

Guns that are carried can get dirty and/or rusty, and are prone to jamming due to dirt and/or rust accumulation...

Hey, wait...

There's a new procedure that's being touted as all the rage in Europe...

It's called cleaning and maintenance...
 
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