Hmm, with a comment like, "two black youngs; why am I not suprised" would be used against you by some slimey defense attorney if by chance you shot one of them. Not that I am calling you a racist but you have to watch yourself man, the courts these days hates gun owners and they WILL use anything against you.
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Should I just take this bull?
- Thread starter The Sig Man
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Mike Spight
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damiano:
So that's still a popular MO in Honduras?
It was used fairly often during the year (1993-1994)I spent at Soto Cano in Comayaqua. We never stopped for anyone (but FUSEP) on the roads even though we carried Berettas with us when off the base.
From what I've been told, crime is actually worse now in Honduras than when I was there,
especially in Tegucigalpa and other larger cities.
Mike
So that's still a popular MO in Honduras?
It was used fairly often during the year (1993-1994)I spent at Soto Cano in Comayaqua. We never stopped for anyone (but FUSEP) on the roads even though we carried Berettas with us when off the base.
From what I've been told, crime is actually worse now in Honduras than when I was there,
especially in Tegucigalpa and other larger cities.
Mike
Is this the group I want to be associated with? Does anyone here belong to the NRA? Are you all willing to kill a person or persons for a $500 deductable? KILL a person? You all believe this is justified. I may talk a big game at times, joking with friends, but deep in my heart, I don't ever want to kill anyone. This is what HCI thinks of us, and you are more than reinforcing the stereotype. I carry a gun, I like feeling that I can protect myself, if I need to. But if I can run, I will do that before I draw a weapon. You all sound like you are waiting for the chance. I am disgusted. Not one voice of dissent. Yes, videotape them, yell at them, but kill them? You sound like I can so I will, not I have to, or I will get hurt.
Although this is by no means legal advice, it is my understanding that you can only use lethal force when you are threatened by lethal force, and that you must do everything in your power to AVOID the conflict. In other words, you can only shoot when the poop hits the fan and it is your absolute last resort. On the other hand, some states make provisions for citizens arrest and the use of lethal force.
Mike in VA
New member
SIG man, I can sympathize with your anger and frustration, but if I rmeber correctly, you're in the Sheeple's Republik of Merryland, and believe me, the liberal wimps will make you pay for oppressing those poor, underprivileged underclass punks just because teh busted up your ride for a radio they'll sell for maybe $20. As satisfying and gratifying it would be to eff'em up real good (hell, I think they should be shot for their lack of ambition, but that's another thread someday), the bottom line is you can't shoot 'em over property theft, and Merryland would love to make an example out of you as another mad dog gun owner to justify their oppresive (and stupid) gun laws. I'm afraid alarms and insurance is the best you can do, unless you figure out how to get the jump on them and give them a dose of back alley adjudication. Stay cool & safe, M2
Actually, I feel like very few (if any) of these guys would actually go out and kill a person for stealing a car stereo... but I may do it if someone broke into my home or into my car while I were in it. It's easy to get your adrenaline up when talking about these situations... especially when you've been victimized; talking tough is just a way of coping.
I really like the pellet-gun idea... but I wouldn't want to stay up all the time just to try it out. Chances are you won't see them again.
Ben
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AOL IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
I really like the pellet-gun idea... but I wouldn't want to stay up all the time just to try it out. Chances are you won't see them again.
Ben
------------------
AOL IM: BenK911
ICQ # 53788523
"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target"
Mike Spight
New member
Nope...not willing to kill someone over a piece of property that is insured anyway.
SIG Man's frustration, as I stated, is one I understand. Apparently the police are unable to solve the problem. If he lives in a state where he can't perform a citizen's arrest, he's screwed. He's PO'd and he has a right to be.
If he were able to go out and attempt to make a citizen's arrest and one of them attempted to use deadly force against him, well now that's another story.
Mike
SIG Man's frustration, as I stated, is one I understand. Apparently the police are unable to solve the problem. If he lives in a state where he can't perform a citizen's arrest, he's screwed. He's PO'd and he has a right to be.
If he were able to go out and attempt to make a citizen's arrest and one of them attempted to use deadly force against him, well now that's another story.
Mike
A number of years ago, before I had my own place, a roommate came into the living room where the rest of the house was having a few beers watching a movie on the telly and asked/said, "Ummm, Ann, if you're here, who is in your car?"
I jumped up, said something like call the police, grabbed a tennis racket from the hall closet, hit the outside light switch, and ran to the car.
A fellow had smashed the window and was halfway in the car wrestling with something in the car, his waist on the sill.
I readied myself for a clobbering chop to the small of the back, and couldn't do it. Then thought about nailing him to the back of the knees.
All the while, the guy is still going for the radio...seemed like forever had passed.
So I shouted, "Stop it!"
He did and hurt himself trying to extract himself from the car, or at least it looked like he did.
And then he came at me. But a vision of the racket made him turn and pause and flee in the opposite direction.
I chase.
The chase goes over my fence into my yard and through our tomato plants (the tomato cages tripped him up), over our rear fence which had barbed wire running along the top (to stop the neighborhood cats), into the neighbors yard (with the big, loud but old and mostly harmless dog...I've petted him mnay times through a hole in the fence), and then he starts to scale their fence to drop into their neighbors yard.
Funnying thing though in San Francisco with the yards being on hills...it can be a 6 foot fence on one side, and 15 foot on the other.
I wasn't going to follow, so stopped to pet the barking dog and just listened as this guy moaned.
Then the owners dog tells me to freeze and a flashlight blinds me.
He had a gun.
We waited till the cops came in about 5 minutes.
The dog owner didn't get in trouble, I didn't get in trouble, the bad guy got away, and the cops told me next time to say "Stop it, don't move!" And, "If they move abruptly, at all, smash them until there is no threat...which should be once." He stressed the once.
Anyway, it is a long story with no real point, I guess, except to say that I, and other, have been in similar situations. It is difficult to get the adrenalin down, and I for one am glad I had a tennis racket and not the target pistol I had at the time (just a poor, recent graduate).
And I am sure if I had a gun in my hand instead of a tennis racket, things would have been so much more worse for everyone.
Duncan
[This message has been edited by Duncan (edited November 07, 1999).]
I jumped up, said something like call the police, grabbed a tennis racket from the hall closet, hit the outside light switch, and ran to the car.
A fellow had smashed the window and was halfway in the car wrestling with something in the car, his waist on the sill.
I readied myself for a clobbering chop to the small of the back, and couldn't do it. Then thought about nailing him to the back of the knees.
All the while, the guy is still going for the radio...seemed like forever had passed.
So I shouted, "Stop it!"
He did and hurt himself trying to extract himself from the car, or at least it looked like he did.
And then he came at me. But a vision of the racket made him turn and pause and flee in the opposite direction.
I chase.
The chase goes over my fence into my yard and through our tomato plants (the tomato cages tripped him up), over our rear fence which had barbed wire running along the top (to stop the neighborhood cats), into the neighbors yard (with the big, loud but old and mostly harmless dog...I've petted him mnay times through a hole in the fence), and then he starts to scale their fence to drop into their neighbors yard.
Funnying thing though in San Francisco with the yards being on hills...it can be a 6 foot fence on one side, and 15 foot on the other.
I wasn't going to follow, so stopped to pet the barking dog and just listened as this guy moaned.
Then the owners dog tells me to freeze and a flashlight blinds me.
He had a gun.
We waited till the cops came in about 5 minutes.
The dog owner didn't get in trouble, I didn't get in trouble, the bad guy got away, and the cops told me next time to say "Stop it, don't move!" And, "If they move abruptly, at all, smash them until there is no threat...which should be once." He stressed the once.
Anyway, it is a long story with no real point, I guess, except to say that I, and other, have been in similar situations. It is difficult to get the adrenalin down, and I for one am glad I had a tennis racket and not the target pistol I had at the time (just a poor, recent graduate).
And I am sure if I had a gun in my hand instead of a tennis racket, things would have been so much more worse for everyone.
Duncan
[This message has been edited by Duncan (edited November 07, 1999).]
Mike Spight:
The crime is worse. In fact, it's pathetic. I bought my folks a 220 for their "door gun" and according to my father he's had to scare people off with it at least 5 times in the past year.
I was down there during/after the hurricane last year flying in relief supplies with a chopper and there were several times I was glad I brought along my trusty P226 (god I love my sigs.) We would make a net drop full of food and then come down off to the side to distribute it and there was always some drunk man trying to steal some poor woman's ration of milk. Needless, to say a shot fired in the air calms people down real quick. A bunch of people from my church went with me to help distribute and I made sure each one was a qualified shooter and brought a sidearm with them. I didn't let them put their harnesses on until they showed me they carried. We even had some idiots near Puerto Cortez try to rob us. A couple of garifunas came out with some old shotguns and were waiting for the second load of food. They forced the rest of those villagers away while we dropped the food and put the chopper down, then stupidly, tried to go and load it in their pickup. I say stupidly because they put their guns down. So they turned around for another armful of rice and milk and saw 4 guys with 2 9mm's a 2 .45's facing them down. They "politely" unloaded the stolen food and we took their shotguns. My buddy tossed one out the helicopter about 5 miles away from 3k. I kept the other. Still have it too, as I restored it and put it on the wall... a very nice pre-belgium/japan Browning A-5 semi.
I guess crime does pay.... heheheheheeh
And yes btw, Teguz is terrible. my sister-in-law is from there and she tells that her family is robbed constantly.
The crime is worse. In fact, it's pathetic. I bought my folks a 220 for their "door gun" and according to my father he's had to scare people off with it at least 5 times in the past year.
I was down there during/after the hurricane last year flying in relief supplies with a chopper and there were several times I was glad I brought along my trusty P226 (god I love my sigs.) We would make a net drop full of food and then come down off to the side to distribute it and there was always some drunk man trying to steal some poor woman's ration of milk. Needless, to say a shot fired in the air calms people down real quick. A bunch of people from my church went with me to help distribute and I made sure each one was a qualified shooter and brought a sidearm with them. I didn't let them put their harnesses on until they showed me they carried. We even had some idiots near Puerto Cortez try to rob us. A couple of garifunas came out with some old shotguns and were waiting for the second load of food. They forced the rest of those villagers away while we dropped the food and put the chopper down, then stupidly, tried to go and load it in their pickup. I say stupidly because they put their guns down. So they turned around for another armful of rice and milk and saw 4 guys with 2 9mm's a 2 .45's facing them down. They "politely" unloaded the stolen food and we took their shotguns. My buddy tossed one out the helicopter about 5 miles away from 3k. I kept the other. Still have it too, as I restored it and put it on the wall... a very nice pre-belgium/japan Browning A-5 semi.
I guess crime does pay.... heheheheheeh
And yes btw, Teguz is terrible. my sister-in-law is from there and she tells that her family is robbed constantly.
Beretta Boy
New member
Maybe I am ignorant to the law, but how bad would it have been for this man to hold the car theives at gun point until the police arrived? I know as a rule of thumb you shouldn't pull a gun unless you mean to use it, but it seems a logical thing to do to me. If the hoodlums pull a weapon, then you have justification for shooting them, and have the advantage of already having a weapon drawn.... right? maybe? I would like some feedback on this so that I can make the right decision if it happens to me... After all, I had at least 500 dollars worth of stuff stolen out of my truck last week, after only being gone for a half hour... I barely missed them. I could have easily caught them in the act, and been in a similar situation.
Beretta Boy,
With respect, what are you going to do if the two criminals just WALK AWAY? As indicated in my earlier post to this thread, it's illegal in most states to use deadly force to protect property and, in fact, lethal force can ONLY be used to prevent death or grave injury. It would be difficult to demonstrate that people walking away from you were a serious and immediate threat. Moreover, since The Sig Man lives in an apartment complex, witnesses are likely.
Now I hate this just as much as all the posters to this thread and I share the frustration we all feel. However, The Sig Man's real problem isn't protecting his car's stereo, it's potentially embroiling himself in a MAJOR legal crisis - even if he is eventually exonerated, which we all believe would be fully justified.
The real hell of it is the two young felons will continue to victimize people because society doesn't stop them during their early criminal activities.
With respect, what are you going to do if the two criminals just WALK AWAY? As indicated in my earlier post to this thread, it's illegal in most states to use deadly force to protect property and, in fact, lethal force can ONLY be used to prevent death or grave injury. It would be difficult to demonstrate that people walking away from you were a serious and immediate threat. Moreover, since The Sig Man lives in an apartment complex, witnesses are likely.
Now I hate this just as much as all the posters to this thread and I share the frustration we all feel. However, The Sig Man's real problem isn't protecting his car's stereo, it's potentially embroiling himself in a MAJOR legal crisis - even if he is eventually exonerated, which we all believe would be fully justified.
The real hell of it is the two young felons will continue to victimize people because society doesn't stop them during their early criminal activities.
Mike Spight
New member
damiano:
Thanks for the input...please feel free to give me a push on my e-mail with info like that anytime. I loved Honduras and the people...absolutely one of the two best assignments I ever had in my 25 years in uniform.
I miss the place and would enjoy talking about the country anytime.
Thanks again...
Mike
Thanks for the input...please feel free to give me a push on my e-mail with info like that anytime. I loved Honduras and the people...absolutely one of the two best assignments I ever had in my 25 years in uniform.
I miss the place and would enjoy talking about the country anytime.
Thanks again...
Mike
The Sig Man
New member
Thank you for the comments guys. However, some of the members misunderstood me that I just wanted hurt them with my gun. No. what I've tried to say was that I wanted to catch them. But, if they had guns, of cause I would shoot them, but even this makes me in a big trouble. It stinks. It already has been more than five cars burglarized around my area(I think they move around the Apartment) The people I hate the most are those who don't respect others, and other people's properties. Some properties can be mean alot to the owner much more than Other people think of them. If no one do anything to them(Fat chance in relaying on the police), they will do it again, and think they can do whatever they want. Usually, scumbags think that they are the ruler, and no one will be after them except cops. I want them to realize that there will be always price to pay on you own action. I know that you guys have been talk to me as LEGAL or ILEGAL , but What I am saying is what is RIGHT or WRONG. I guess that there is only legal or ilegal way in nowdays.
P.S: I am sorry about that I've played little sacarsism on specific race on my post.
P.S: I am sorry about that I've played little sacarsism on specific race on my post.
Bennett Richards
New member
I have a friend that went after a kid that broke out his car window. Was trying to make a citizen's arrest when his 9mm went off accidentally and blew off the back of a 16 year olds' head.
My friend is now doing 15 to life in a CA prison...
NEVER.. I repeat NEVER go after a perp outside your home with a gun unless they are armed and firing at you at the time! Even then you may go to jail....
BEN
My friend is now doing 15 to life in a CA prison...
NEVER.. I repeat NEVER go after a perp outside your home with a gun unless they are armed and firing at you at the time! Even then you may go to jail....
BEN
You did the right thing. It's got to be extremely tempting to give em some hot lead when you catch em in the act like that, but as you indicate, your life would be dramatically altered (jail sentence, etc.). My advice is, if you want to chase them, use OC spray or a taser - but be careful - they may have guns.
Oh yeah, Akrob, amen to all you have said regarding a Schutzhund companion. I'll be getting my schutzhund GSD next fall. I wanted a Mal because they're so courageous, but I don't want to have to starve him to make him track, so I'm opting for the GSD, which are much more focused trackers and can be almost as good biters if from a good line.
As far as killing someone for property, this is a cultural/values thing. There is a wide diversity of deep-rooted feelings on what is proper/acceptable in different cultural areas of our nation. Witness the difference between the law in TX protecting the right to use deadly force for property versus black ops's feelings about this, being in Mass. I personally believe one deserves to die if he's in MY house stealing my things and threatening my life, even if the actual threat is not imminently presented - the threat is implicit - this is just how our society/culture views this issue for the most part here in the south. The law doesn't always agree, but the "make my day" law here and elsewhere does follow the above value closely. I don't believe someone deserves to die for stealing from a car or vandalizing or other non-home-burglary offenses, except rape and murder. Nor do I think one should be summarily executed without a proper trial. But I do think the punishment deserved for home burglary is death.
Also on the subject of laws in different areas of the country reflecting the different values of the people there: Black Ops, you mentioned retreating; there is a stark split of the law on the issue of the necessity of the person threatened having to retreat before being justified in using deadly force; in most states, on the coasts and the midwest, one has a duty to retreat if escape is possible before using deadly force, but in a few states, mostly in the "frontier West" states, there is no legal duty to retreat, regardless of the possibility of escape; if deadly force is imminent against you, you are justified in returning deadly force, period. You may be shocked and disgusted, but I suggest no one is right or wrong. This is just flat out a difference in cultural values (of course I don't think anyone thinks someone deserves to die for car burglary - the threat to person is not implicit there). I suspect the cultural differences stem in the Western states from the pioneer spirit, and perhaps relative lack of prosperity - the people feel as though they've worked so hard for what little they have acquired, punishment should be extremely severe when one tries to steal it from them. [remainder of post deleted as too off-topic]
[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited November 07, 1999).]
As far as killing someone for property, this is a cultural/values thing. There is a wide diversity of deep-rooted feelings on what is proper/acceptable in different cultural areas of our nation. Witness the difference between the law in TX protecting the right to use deadly force for property versus black ops's feelings about this, being in Mass. I personally believe one deserves to die if he's in MY house stealing my things and threatening my life, even if the actual threat is not imminently presented - the threat is implicit - this is just how our society/culture views this issue for the most part here in the south. The law doesn't always agree, but the "make my day" law here and elsewhere does follow the above value closely. I don't believe someone deserves to die for stealing from a car or vandalizing or other non-home-burglary offenses, except rape and murder. Nor do I think one should be summarily executed without a proper trial. But I do think the punishment deserved for home burglary is death.
Also on the subject of laws in different areas of the country reflecting the different values of the people there: Black Ops, you mentioned retreating; there is a stark split of the law on the issue of the necessity of the person threatened having to retreat before being justified in using deadly force; in most states, on the coasts and the midwest, one has a duty to retreat if escape is possible before using deadly force, but in a few states, mostly in the "frontier West" states, there is no legal duty to retreat, regardless of the possibility of escape; if deadly force is imminent against you, you are justified in returning deadly force, period. You may be shocked and disgusted, but I suggest no one is right or wrong. This is just flat out a difference in cultural values (of course I don't think anyone thinks someone deserves to die for car burglary - the threat to person is not implicit there). I suspect the cultural differences stem in the Western states from the pioneer spirit, and perhaps relative lack of prosperity - the people feel as though they've worked so hard for what little they have acquired, punishment should be extremely severe when one tries to steal it from them. [remainder of post deleted as too off-topic]
[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited November 07, 1999).]
Bennett Richards:
I'm sorry to hear about your friend's problem. It is a tragedy.
However, and perhaps it's my upbringing in third world countries, I don't feel it's a tragedy that the 16 year died. Harsh, yes I know. But our problem these days shouldn't be worrying about whether it's legal to stop a criminal or not. We should be focusing on stopping the crime and it's obvious that the main way to do it, is quick, final and with extreme predjudice. I'm not advocating shooting all kids who break windows, but I am advocating a serious return to punishments that work. We are at a stage in our national growth that unless we do swallow the bitter pill and have a few years of difficult choices we can bring crime down, both petty and major. The problem is that people want crime to come down but they want perfect methods. No eggs broken. Impossible. Unless we are willing to swallow the few mistakes that would be made in the pursuit of real justice, UNTIL the bell curve came down, we are going to keep sliding down the slippery slope.
I'm sorry to hear about your friend's problem. It is a tragedy.
However, and perhaps it's my upbringing in third world countries, I don't feel it's a tragedy that the 16 year died. Harsh, yes I know. But our problem these days shouldn't be worrying about whether it's legal to stop a criminal or not. We should be focusing on stopping the crime and it's obvious that the main way to do it, is quick, final and with extreme predjudice. I'm not advocating shooting all kids who break windows, but I am advocating a serious return to punishments that work. We are at a stage in our national growth that unless we do swallow the bitter pill and have a few years of difficult choices we can bring crime down, both petty and major. The problem is that people want crime to come down but they want perfect methods. No eggs broken. Impossible. Unless we are willing to swallow the few mistakes that would be made in the pursuit of real justice, UNTIL the bell curve came down, we are going to keep sliding down the slippery slope.
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