Should I just take this bull?

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The Sig Man

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Last week, someone bursted my car window, and tried to steal my stereo. It happened overnight;I found out very next morning. I made a police report;he didn't seem to give damn about it. After the incident, I couldn't go sleep because of the anger. Thus, I've decided to stake out. After five night of the stake out, shocking thing has happened....guess what? the stereo thieves(two black youngs;why am I not surprised?) showed up again. The time was 1:30AM. Soon as I saw them bursting into other Toyota, I called 911. Right after I made the call, I grabbed my Sig, and was about to go after them. But, I hesitated for while because of my friend(P.I)'s advise. He has told me that if I shoot the thieves in any situation, I am the one who will be in a big trouble rather than them because using gun in property damage situation is not acceptable. Also, since I live in an Apartment, soon as I step out the door with gun makes me in trouble. So I waited 'till the police arrived. As I guessed, it was too late to catch them. Now, I really regret that I didn't go after them with my gun. I've read that while ago in texas, if someone steals a horse from others will be sentenced in death penalty. But, nowdays, all you can do is call police whom will just give you a police report number. What do you guys think about my situation? Should I have chased them with my gun? One thing that makes more angry was that the police did not chase them right away, he waited a five minute until other polices show up!!! He got scare to chase them alone!!!...and they don't want me(the victim) to chase them!...god! Is there any rational explanation on this? Criminals do whatever they do and usually get away with that, and us good people just have to take that!
 
You have no police power and no cause to use deadly force in such a situation. I sympathize with your feelings of frustration, but you have to ask yourself, Is dealing with this situation in the way you desire worth a felony conviction and the loss of citizenship and the right to ever own a gun again?

The best you can do is call the cops and try to get details, such as descriptions and license numbers, etc.. Videotape of the theft could be very handy in the future.

Don't do something you'll regret and pay for the rest of your life. Those two guys aren't worth the price you'll have to pay, both social and economic. Your P.I. friend is correct.
 
Sorry to here about your car. I dont no about the law these days but i think they are just messed up. Your luck that the cop did not think you were at fault. Most cops these days do want they want,and thinking what they want. I am not bashing cops ther are some good cops out there. I live in san diego, ca and i took my car across the border. My blazer was stolen out of a parking garage. i reported it to the us border patrol. and the mexican police. Guess what they were playing 20 questions with me,they were trying to make me be the one that was the theif. after about 2 month they found my car striped it was useless. My aaa figuerd out everything but that was close to another month. Oh well what can we do? I dont no!
Thats my 2 cents about the Law that is souposed to protect us
 
Too bad you don't live in Texas. In these parts a citizen has the right to use deadly force against someone commiting a felony on one's property after dark. In other words, a homeowner can shoot a car thief, on the owner's property after dark, with minimal hassel.
A couple of years ago a man in Dallas caught some BGs stealing his car wheels and killed all four of them. No-billed by the grand jury.
This "property protection" premise has been tried many times in the courts and continues to stand up. Such is the way it should be.
BGs beware.

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Join the NRA.
 
What would they have done if you leaned out the window with your wrist rocket and nailed one the scumbags with a marble(very discreetly of course).
 
As an often time resident of TEXAS (I'm in the MIL) I know that you could probably shoot someone on your property whom is commiting a felony in my home state! However I would not do so. My weapons are for personal (life or death!) protection only. The weapons issued to me in the MIL are the only ones that will ever, hopefully NEVER make an intentional non-self defense assault on other human beings with.

YES, there are a lot of SCUMBAGS out there whom probably wound not be missed if you plugged them, but why RISK IT?

I try to imagine the worst outcome in a scenerio like the one you described.

1). You could shoot and kill the bastards, and MAYBE go to prison, loose your right to bare arms, or at the very least pay high attorney fees to prevent these possible out comes.

2). You could shoot at and maybe be shot back at by these folks risking the lives of your family as well as your own (over petty material S---!) I once read an article about a man who was held up & whom defended himself with his firearm only to be shot and killed by one of the scumbags partners waiting in the shadows. My point being that you really do not know what your up against. There can be others waiting and watching! When you assault with your SIG, out of the shadows comes a dude with a shotgun and another with an assault rifle, you get it and even worst your loved ones get it too!

3). Finally, you could assault these people succeed or fail, only to have these people, their "FRIENDs" and family out for "PAYBACK."
This could create a long term DANGER towards you and yours. People whom sneak around in the night to take from others are capable of any inhumane deeds and I put nothing past them! They are less than MEN! what do they have to lose?

Of course these are worst case scenerios, but again why risk it. You like most GUN owners are intellegent and able to rationalize the use of your weapons. This is what seperates US from THEM, what makes us BETTER than them! We have something to loose that the scumbag does not, and I ain't talking about things that are obtained with $$$.

Keep your cool and stay SMART!

P.S. If they come barging through your door with EVIL in their eyes, by all means blast away!

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SURE SHOT
 
You did the right thing.

Still, it would've been nice if you shot them...

with a camera. (Be sure to do this next time.)

For future reference, you could always go to Radio Shack and pick up a megaphone. The next time this happens, open the window, and scream, "Hey you! Get away from my car!"

You know what would be funny? Ever seen that commercial where the entire police department has these crooks contained in this building and they're trying to convince the dastardly trio to give up? They fire up this huge presentation and says something like, "To give you an idea of what you're up against, let me show you a graph. There are only 3 of you and 300 of us! And we have sharpshooters here, here, and here! We also have police choppers and armor vehicles standing by." And they're like, "Where are the sharpshooters again?" :D

Ok, that probably was out of place. Seriously though, everytime something happens, your first instinct can't be to grab your gun and hose them down. But it's good you staked your spot out. With dumber crooks, lightning tend to strike twice because they think they can get away with it again. Too bad though, that you didn't get any video documentation. I've always wanted to see some crook crap in his pants on film when you blare through the loudspeaker, "This is the Neighborhood Watchdog Militia! We have you surrounded! Step away from the car so we can get a clear shot at you!" Hehe.

Ahem. Please excuse me. I'm not in my right mind right now.

[This message has been edited by SB (edited November 05, 1999).]
 
The megaphone thing.. that was kind of tongue in cheek. But I was serious about the video recording part. Just wanted to clarify.
 
My house was burglarized twice within six months. We lived in a good area, and it turned out the theif lived in a good neighborhood also he was 17 years old and in and out of reform school. The first time I came home from work for lunch after getting a bad feeling that something was wrong. I called my house and the answering machine did not pick up. When I arrived home I found my side door had been pried open with a crowbar. The theives (17 yr old ringleader and accomplices had dumped EVERYTHING on the FLOOR EVERYTHING!!!!!.
POLICE arrive and they name and know the criminals. They can't follow them around and arrest them? The officer tells me he wished they could.

The second time my alarm system (radio shack went off and called 911 via tape dialer) The police were there when I arrived with the 12 year old in cuffs. He had turned states evidence on FAGAN the 17 year old ringleader.

The point is an alarm system will catch bad guys without lethal force. GET ONE
Bad guys don't like light and noise.

I would not want to shoot a 12 year old from a broken home for stealing my stereo.


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Master Blaster
 
This is the truth....
I live on a Main road & have LOTS of @ass holes walking by causing mischief (breaking into cars, destroying mail boxes, tipping over trash cans) all the time.
What I do is to YELL from my "darkened" verandah, "Hey SH!THEAD, I've just called the Cops & they'll be here in less than 3 minutes"
The panic that follows is rather amusing! :D

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"The Gun from Down Under !"
http://www.para1911fanclub.w3.to/
Alternate E-mail
HS2000@ausi.com




[This message has been edited by HS (edited November 05, 1999).]
 
I understand what you mean about feeling anger and feeling powerless.

In my first burglary I felt like I could have killed the perpetrators if I caught them
I had a hunting knife with a 7" blade in my car when I arrived and discovered the break in the adrenaline kicked in. it is good I did not find them in my house, I probably would have sliced them up good. My dog was missing but we found our 2 yr old schnauzer had just wandered off.

When the police arrived the dog was my main concern. The cop took me in his squad car to the perpetrators house!!!!!!!

He was not home but his mom was. This is in a good suburban neighborhood.

Over the next two weeks I rode past the perps house countless times with a baseball bat and my new handgun in the car!!!

I even saw him twice. but I resisted the urge to kill him on the spot because jail did not appeal to me. Once I saw the whole family together, I visualized using the bat on Dad's Knees first since he was the largest.

They arrested Fagan after the second burglary when his 12 year old accomlice turned him in. He was busted with 2 oz of cocaine scales bags and mannite for cutting. A pro Drug dealer as well as a burglar.
The sentance was 9 years.

As far as I know he never carried a gun.
If I had caught him in my house and he cornered me, ran towards me I would have shot him.

He was a stealth robber and just wanted the goods. they watched our house to determine when we were at work and broke in then.

Light and Noise An Alarm and good lighting.


Please dont act on any angry impulses you will regret it later.
 
SIG Man:

Don't know where you live but it's too bad you couldn't have capped them. Comes under the heading of DSAF...Doing society a favor.

An alternative: Buy a big ass German Shepard or Rotweiller and spend the bucks to go through German styled protective training with the animal. (I can't recall the German term for it...sounds like schutzen). The next time they come back, let the dog out and sit back and enjoy the show. Obviously, the dog can only eat one of them up but it would be absolutely hilarious, especially watching the other one break the sound barrier down your street. If one produces a firearm to shoot the dog, then blast away.

By all means, check out the legality of this technique in your own state and municipality.

Mike
 
Mike,
A few words on your vicious dog idea... First, the training you're referring to is Schutzhund, which originated in Germany. Contrary to most people's belief that this training is purely protection-based, there are actually three disciplines: Obedience, Tracking, and Protection. A Schutzhund dog must be proficient in all of these, especially Obedience IMHO. I agree that watching a well-training Schutzhund dog do his work in a real-life application would be awesome! However, sending your dog into such a situation is a huge, and possibly tragic, decision. If you actually spend the time bonding and training your dog, making him a part of your family, it's like sending one of your kids into battle. Losing such a companion/partner is heart-wrenching. Furthermore, "dabbling" with protection and/or Schutzhund training is ill-advised. Being semi-committed to such a program will produce a socially dangerous dog. On the other hand, a fully committed trainer and program with sufficient socialization will produce a dog that poses less of a threat than a purely untrained dog. So, by all means, if you decide to do it, DO IT!

BTW, I don't mean to shoot(no pun intended) your idea down. I just wanted to provide some insight on the topic. Like I said, watching one of these dogs work is amazing!

Cheers,
AKrob (Shepherd owner in training)
 
>>>You have no police power and no cause to use deadly force in such a situation<<<<

Deadly force? No way. But citizens actually have wider powers of arrest than law enforcement personnel - you aren't bound by Miranda, etc.
I don't know if it would have been wise to go after these kids (considering the police are going to show up in a confused situation and find a man with a gun), but I just wanted to point out that its within our rights to arrest a felon any time, any place. A right that should be exercised with caution and discretion.


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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Yeah I know the feeling you want to bust them up good,,,but the law is clear about using deadly force to protect property. Its different in every state but usually the shooter has to have put you in fear of your life or great bodily harm at the time of the occurance in order for deadly force to be used. I do like the pepper spray...we have used it on perps who say they would have rather been shot. I gave some to my wife I hope she never gets mad at me.
 
i can give you a great way to stop this kind of thing from happening to you. Do what i do....

I have a crosman model 2000 .177 pellet gun with a 9x bushnell scope that shoots at 750FPS !

Very effective in stopping car theives and stereo theives. Just give it 10 pumps and pop one of them in the head. Make sure you have the lights out behind you so they dont see you and they will never know where it came from. It wont drop them in their tracks but i garantee it'll leave them making tracks .

P.S This is very amusing by the way !

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TIM : )
 
Sig Man, my friend.

I empathize with you. I've had similar things happen to me. I've even been shot at in my own rural neighborhood for no better reason than that I must have looked like a good moving target, more fun than the signs that the bad guys were filling full of holes. This was late in the afternoon. Six, that's right, 6 LE agencies were notified immediately once I made it to my house. Guess what. No one else wanted to get shot at. One and one half hours later, cars from two of those 6 local agencies showed up. Had they gotten there one hour earlier, they could have nabbed them. They took a statement and looked at bullet holes in the sides of houses and said there is nothing they could do. Call if it happens again. I know that they don't reflect all LEOs by any means. But THESE guys motto, "To protect and to serve" is a bad joke to put it nicely. If there is an LEO offended, thinking this is a slam on your vocation, I think you need to take a deep breath and relax. I have some fine LEO friends and family. They are not cowards, but I have met one or two who were. You get good and bad in any job IMHO.

BOTTOM LINE:

***1. What was already said concerning chasing these maggots down and using lethal force is true. Your neighbors car and there aprehension is not worth your trouble/risk w/the legal aftermath.

***2. You are the only one who can save your own/family's bacon. The good guys in blue might eventually aprehend these maggots, since maggots tend to continue their patterns as you already found out so soon.

***3. Even though you can save your own bacon, you can't always save your own property. I know. I hate it too. Its the unjust times that we live in I guess. :(

I could tell you what the Bible says about such matters if you wish, but that's the spiritual aspect of this matter. EQUALIZERplus@netscape.net
In the physical realm about all that I can see you do is:
a) Get a good alarm system and auto insurance that covers this type of destruction.
b) Move. That stinks.
c) Start a neighborhood watch.
d) Get the city to put up more street lights around your bldg.
e) Consider pepper spray w/UV marker as a means of detaining them. Although this has its possible legal and violence related ramifications too.
f) Make sure that your dwelling has adequate crime preventive measures and layers.
Hope that it never has to come to using that fine SIG, the best factory handgun on earth. But if it does, remember to tell 911 that you were in fear of your life and need an ambulance, to cover your butt legally if knowthing else. ;) Mas Ayoob has written some of the best books in this area. They are worth getting.
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BladeForums.PoliticalArena.Dial911andDie.com Sorry guys I still don't know how to find how to link this. Can someone teach me how to use url/ubb and linking specific quotes and threads?

Robert
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"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." -Jesus Christ (Luke 22:36, see John 3:15-18)


[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited November 05, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited November 05, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by EQUALIZER (edited November 05, 1999).]
 
AKrob:

Thanks for the info on the correct termnology. Schutzhund training was/is still popular with soldiers in the Ft. Bragg area who have large protective breeds.

I agree...using a trained dog for this purpose is much safer than letting a totally untrained, vicious hound out that will not listen to you or let go of the BG when you shout "Out!".

I think I share everyones' frustration in SIG Man's situation...police unable to do anything but react (TL2) and a legal system that may preclude the property owner from taking action. He may want to check into that. As Keith Rogan mentioned, citzens arrest may be allowed if one witnesses a misdemeanor/felony.

Mike
 
I grew up and still live on a part time basis overseas, particularly Central America and Africa. It is so nice being able to live in countries where you don't have to worry so much about the legalities. In Honduras, where my folks retired, a common ploy is to have a robber lay on the road and act like he's dead. A few other criminals will be standing around him like friendly villagers and will wave you down to "ask if you could cart his body home." Well, needless to say many robbings, beatings, killings and rapings have resulted. About 2 years ago I was traveling to Copan with a Honduran friend in my Landrover and this happened. I was behind the wheel and she was in the passenger side. We stopped (at night, stupid us) to ask if we could help and the "villager" pulled out a knife and put it in her window. Bad idea. Very bad idea. Lola my friend (she's one of the Anti-Narco cops wife in San Pedro) grabs his hand and holds it against the dash and tells me to hoof it. So I hit the gas, accidently (yea right) knocking the "victim" 4 ways to sunday and she holds on to the perp for about 300 yards until she lets go. I'm sure he had at a minimum a dislocated shoulder and as for the vic, I can only hope for the worst.

needless to say, now when I travel those roads, my 226 goes with me right next to the gearshift.
 
Sig Man,

Here's the thing. In most states -- there are a few exceptions -- deadly force cannot be used to protect property (maybe not even by LEOs). So if you confront these little sh**heads, and they essentially run away, you're stuck. You can't use lethal force and you probably don't want a two-versus-one fist fight. Also, since you live in an apartment complex, there's a reasonable chance a witness might observe you, which could undermine any phony self-defense argument.

All this said, I believe you did the right thing . . . . but I certainly understand your frustration.

One final point: maybe the local police hierarchy will respond to political pressure. I wonder if a visit -- accompanied by a comprehensive, articulately written letter delineating all the circumstances -- to your local town councilman (or whatever) would get the police activated?
 
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