Should I be able to do this with a stock G19?

There's no question lots of quality trigger time at the range is important, but it's only part of the equation.

Really good competitive shooters also spend lots of time practicing via dry fire drills. In this context, "dry fire" isn't solely about trigger control - it's also about getting your grip and index consistent, and getting your gun handling skills (e.g., drawing, transitioning, reloading, etc) and movement as fast, efficient and automatic as possible.

The 3rd part of the equation is a strong mental game: Really good competitive shooters maintain a positive & winning attitude. They don't let counterproductive mental chatter undermine their progress, and they don't get distracted at practice and matches. When they see someone better, they're inspired to work harder, rather than throw up their hands and come up with excuses. "Their gun's better", "their ammo is wimpy", "they're a pro and given everything they need", "they have so much more talent than me" are all common narratives that separate the wannabees from the shooters.

Bottom line: Most people have enough talent to be really excellent shooters, but it takes desire, lots of practice on and off the range, and a good attitude.
 
MrBorland

Just as a reference point MrBorland...

When you are in competition mode how much practice time and how many rounds per month will you go through?
 
jglsprings - When I'm in competition/practice mode, I'll live fire twice a week - one practice session, and one match. If no match, I'll practice twice. I'll generally shoot 10 - 15k rounds per year.

When in competition mode, I also try to run specific dry fire drills several times per week, about 30 minutes each.

Compared to the Big Dogs, this ain't much - probably half what they do - but I enjoy numerous forms of shooting, and haven't (yet) focused on any of them enough to reach top GM level.
 
The spare tire must the key - he doesn't look like he has the forearms or any other muscles to keep the muzzle down like that.

Yesterday, I was shooting a G19 and trying to get a shot off every 2 seconds or so, and I remember being irritated at not being able to keep my fore finger tight around the front of trigger guard a lot of the time, much less keeping the muzzle on target.
 
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In my case my spare tire reduced my splits by...(write your own material here)

Competition is the key. Enter every match you can. Get squadded with shooters who are better than you and ask questions.

I only used about 100-150 rounds a week, but I spent time every day dry firing and doing dry drills.
 
couldbeanyone said:
If you shoot 25,000 to 30,000 rounds a year in practice, I say yes you should. If you shoot a 100 rounds every 2 weeks I would say no.
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Well, there's my problem then. :p

As I posted on the related 5 x 5 thread, I shot it in a total of 17.49. This was with a bone stock G19 drawn out of a Don Hume 721ot holster from underneath a cover garment. I didn't game it. I showed up to the range, set up the target and shot it. These were my first 25 shots of the day.
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Yeah, that's more along the lines of where I would like to get to, even low 20s with all hits.
 
With actual, legitimate training from a competent instructor: yes.

With repeated practice of the things you're already doing: no.

This is true no matter what gun games you like to play or who you shoot with.

pax
 
With actual, legitimate training from a competent instructor: yes.

With repeated practice of the things you're already doing: no.

This is true no matter what gun games you like to play or who you shoot with.
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I agree with this somewhat, but only so far. Formal training would be nice, but I sure wouldn't say a requirement. I don't think Jerry Miculek took formal training that made him the greatest revolver shooter ever. A lot of it he just figured out. You can learn a whole lot by just doing. Get a shot timer and use it. Do what works for you. Results are what matter.

I have never had any formal training, but I do shoot almost every weekend with a guy who has been state champion either six or eight times in the past, i forget which. So maybe it does matter who you shoot with. He still beats me real regular, but I can get him on a stage once in a while. Of course he shoots a limited gun and I shoot production, so not totally even. But he can shoot anything really well.

Keeping the muzzle down is important, but, more important is that the muzzle comes back to exactly the same spot automatically after each shot. This is accomplished by grip, stance, and lots of practice. The 5 by 5 drill is a whole lot like shooting a Bill drill. And a Bill drill is largely about timing, grp and stance. You take a flash sight picture when you first come on target and the following shots take care of themselves if your grip, stance and trigger control are good. That is provided you don't try to push yourself past your natural timing that your skill level allows you at that time.
 
MrBorland said:
Top Masters and GrandMasters don't use the reset - letting the trigger out to just catch the reset is too slow. Instead, they're generally "trigger slappers", meaning they get off the trigger to allow the trigger to fully come forward before pulling it (with good control) again.
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The less input you give a trigger the less output (movement) you will get out of the sights. You put an experienced shooter who is intimately familiar with their trigger up against a person who is a good shooter but otherwise smacks the hell out of the trigger, and the one who knows their trigger will be more accurate and rapid on the follow up shots.

The example I gave of the Master shooter who uses a nearly stock G34 does well because he knows his trigger...VERY well. It also doesn't hurt that the Glock stock trigger is very good out of the box in regards to uptake, overtravel and reset. Not custom 1911 good, but pretty darn good for such a simple machine.

Now if you are talking a 1.5 to 2.5 pound trigger, then mash away. You could probably get away with all sorts of trigger mash, but not with a stock trigger. You will pay the price by throwing shots low and left (assuming a right handed shooter).

Fly
 
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I don't think Jerry Miculek took formal training that made him the greatest revolver shooter ever. A lot of it he just figured out.
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He figured it out, but not entirely without help. He spent a lot of time around other top-level shooters, watching them shoot, watching them compete.

He also has an unusual mindset. In his words, every time he goes to the range, he tries to prove that everything he's been doing so far is all wrong. So he didn't get complacent because he was shooting "good enough" or better than average, he was always trying to prove that there was a better way.

It's possible to learn to be a really amazing shooter without professional instruction, but that doesn't mean that it's likely. It's actually pretty unlikely. Most people don't have the mindset to try a new technique when they've spent years perfecting the one they're using now, or the determination to continue expending the effort for decades, or the time to actually make it happen.

In a few days, from a good instructor, you can learn techniques and lessons that would take someone like Jerry years to develop on their own.
 
OnTheFly said:
Now if you are talking a 1.5 to 2.5 pound trigger, then mash away. You could probably get away with all sorts of trigger mash, but not with a stock trigger. You will pay the price by throwing shots low and left (assuming a right handed shooter).
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I tried including that "trigger slapping" isn't a term that suggests poor trigger control. It simply means they get off the trigger on the return.

Yes, top runNgun shooters know their trigger well, and they exhibit excellent control, even at speed...but they don't, as a rule, wait for the reset.
 
JohnKSA, we are pretty much on the same page, just saying things differently.

I will say though the chances of you being a really, really good shooter are slim for most people because they just won't expend the effort.

As, I said formal training is always good to get the basics, but you have to take it from there. I am always asking, why. Why do you do it that way.

If you wan't to see something funny, watch a really amazing shooter try to explain what he is seeing when he shoots a stage. It's not something that you can effectively explain. Yes, you are seeing, your sights,...sort of..., um, but more like your subconscious is seeing them, um, um, but your not really consciously taking a sight picture, uh, um, and so on.

There has been a lot of talk about dry fire, etc., and tht is all good, but, if you want to be even a really, really good shooter, you are at some point as Jerry puts it, Be the first on the range an the last to leave. At some point, you are going to spend a lot of time on the range, standing in a pile of brass, learning for yourself exactly what it is you need to see and not see.

And that, as JohnKSA has already said is where most people are goingto fall way short.
 
couldbeanyone said:
There has been a lot of talk about dry fire, etc., and tht is all good, but, if you want to be even a really, really good shooter, you are at some point as Jerry puts it, Be the first on the range an the last to leave. At some point, you are going to spend a lot of time on the range, standing in a pile of brass, learning for yourself exactly what it is you need to see and not see.
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As far as I can tell, I'm the only one who mentioned dry fire. So, just to clarify, I did so to emphasize that it's a highly effective supplement to (not a substitute for) effective live fire. I think we'd all agree effective live fire practice is quite necessary.
 
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Mr. Borland, wasn't calling you out. I dry fire myself, I also have spent a fair amount of time with a friend filming my draw and in front of a mirror. Formal training is also good. But, the point I have tried to make is that the only way to know what a good Bill drill FEELS like is to shoot enough that you actually do one.

A good instructor can show you how to grip a gun, but KC Eusebio, Jerry Miculek, and Bob Vogel don't all grip the gun exactly the same. After the basics, you have to burn a bunch of powder to learn what works best for you.
 
One of my favorite motovational sayings is
"It doesn't matter if you think you can or think you can't, you're probably right"
 
JohnSKa said:
It's possible to learn to be a really amazing shooter without professional instruction, but that doesn't mean that it's likely. It's actually pretty unlikely.
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Yep, just like it's possible to become a professional card player or a professional baseball player. I doubt the OP has that perfect storm brewing for him, otherwise he wouldn't be here asking. With proper guidance, training, and persistence it's far more likely than just training and persistence alone.
 
Working from trial and error, you can spend a lot of money and time building bad habits. Then you will spend even spend more money and time erasing those bad habits once you've figured out what works.

Or you can spend a little money and almost no time getting a good foundation from a competent source. Then every moment of your practice time and the ammo you spend from that point forward can be spent building good habits.

Can you learn without professional training? Sure, of course you can.

But without competent training (which may or may not come from a professional trainer), you're not likely to do as well and you will almost certainly spend a whole lot more money and time getting there.

Unless you have access to an excellent shooter who also knows how to teach, who will work with you in person, you're very likely to be behind the curve in a very expensive way. It's counter-intuitive, but good training at the beginning usually saves a boatload of money.

pax
 
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