Shots per groups

Thank you everyone for their input. Sure is much more than what I hoped for.

I was able to go to the range today and used the 30-06 and the .223. Was at the 50yd and did spend time adjusting the scope as it was way off on the 30-06 after the rings had become loose from previous range trip and I messed up the scope setting pretty bad (later to notice the rings had become loose). Took a bit to adjust the scope.

As well as for the .223 as the scope was adjusted for 20moa rail. I was using a 2 piece rail. That took less effort. Today I was not aiming at grouping as I was more trying to get a feel for the rifle as it was the first time I shot it and get my practice in.

I will post some pictures on the next post.
 
Here are the targets from today.http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/21.jpg
This was the .223 rifle

http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/22.jpg
This is also from the .223. The center right (4 shots) are from the 30-06.

The remaining pictures are from .223.
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/23.jpg
http://www.mentegraphics.com/pictures/24.jpg

After looking at these, it seems I did unconsciously was trying to "group" the shots. If that can be called grouping, lol. Well one thing is for sure, I have a lot of technique still to learn and far from being where I would like to be at.

The 30-06, after setting the scope I did end up setting it aside to let it cool off.

The .223 were using 3.5 boxes of Remington. Did not shoot the other brands mentioned. The ones I purchased range from $6-$9 a box. What other better ammo are out there? I have read the Sierra Matchking that came up a lot. Not buying that yet. Lol.
 
For a new gun there is nothing wrong with that. Most match ammo will give you better performance than Remington Green box.
 
"Tyros, lazy shooters, and the overly cheap think 3-shots is 'good 'nough' to be called a 'group.'"
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I've NEVER seen a good 5 shot group that didn't start out as a good 3 shot group.
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And I've seen sub-MOA 3-shot 'groups' become 1.5 MOA groups, or worse, when two more shots were added ... Yep, I've even watched myself do it. ;)

Again, a 3-shot 'group' only minimally informs you that you've got a point-of-aim on paper, even if those 3 holes are nearly touching. You'll need additional shots to actually vet - in a reliable way - the accuracy of the ammo or the rifle, or both, for the reasons FrankenMauser just explained:

Once I started developing loads and testing factory ammo for myself, I encountered a few situations where I recognized that the three-shot groups were not representative of actual averages. Sticking with 3-shot groups and expecting them to tell me what was really going on with a load/rifle combination was just a trip down Ignorance Lane and into the land of the Texas Sharpshooter.

My standard now is a 5-shot group for load development, fine-tuning, etc. If I feel, for whatever reason, that 5 shots isn't enough, I'll shoot 10-shot groups.
But I might only shoot three shots (or less) to verify a rifle's zero with an established load.
* * *

It can be very enlightening to take a "one-hole" load that you only ever shoot 3-shot groups with, and increase the sample size by a factor of ten, or more. Anomalies and 'noise' in aggregated 3-shot, and even 5-shot, groups suddenly become clear patterns when the sample size is 20, 30, or even 50+ shots...
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Totally agree. Well said.
 
As noted it depends on what you are after.

3 Shots works fine for hunting and sight in.

Target shooting the minimum is 5 (if its going to have any credibility ) and the full picture emerges at 10.

I have shot a number of 1.4 inch 5 shot groups, can't repeat that.
 
The more shots you fire in a group just demonstrates the barrel's consistency. If you want to know how well your hunting rifle will shoot, 3 rounds is probably just fine. If you are concerned with how well your rifle will perform as a varmint rifle or target rifle, shoot more shots per group. I once built a 22-250 for a friend. It shot about 1/2" at 100 yds, but the group had about 30 shots in it, all of them well inside of a one-inch square on a Leupold sight-in target. He told me he was expecting better. I told him if he didn't want the rifle, I would take the target and the rifle and sell it for $1000 easy. Consistency counts, but most shooters will never be in a situation where they will fire that many rounds in a row.
I've NEVER seen a good 5 shot group that didn't start out as a good 3 shot group.
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An old benchrest shooter once told me that "after the first shot, the groups always get bigger".
 
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Care to elaborate on who these "Texas Sharpshooters" are and what they do?
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Texas Sharpshooter Fallacy
Basic premise: Ignoring data that doesn't support the desired conclusion, or intentionally limiting data points in order to not skew the result away from the desired conclusion.

This could be, for example, only firing 3-shot groups, instead of 5-shot groups, because the groups only get bigger.
 
trip down Ignorance Lane and into the land of the Texas Sharpshooter.
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Care to elaborate on who these "Texas Sharpshooters" are and what they do?
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:rolleyes: They're similar to the range phenomenon know as the "Sunday afternoon sniper."

The Sunday afternoon sniper appears about twice a month with his "deer gun" at the local range. He sets up on the bench with sandbags and a bipod. He shoots a few 3-shots groups at 100-yds using typical Wally Mart 30-06 'range' ammo and gets a false-positive best of 1.5" MOA. Now he's zeroed. :confused:

Then, when deer season rolls around, he's out loaded for bear in a tree stand with some super-duper venison-slaying premium '06 ammo - without the sandbags or bipod. It's all good, right, 'cause it's an '06?

An 8-pt buck appears and he misses it by a country mile, ... and has no frickin' clue why. :rolleyes:

Moral of the story: be neither a 'Texas Sharpshooter' nor a 'Sunday afternoon sniper.'

You can thank me later. :cool:
 
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the rifle was not at fault, if he had used the so called cheap Walmart ammo and rested on the tree stands safety rail he would have most likely killed the deer. a 1.5" three shoot group at 100 yards is not to shabby for a hunting rifle, hell I know of a Kimber .270 with a good scope with hand loads that works to get a 1.5" three shot group at 100 yards, I would have sold that high priced piece of junk pretty quick. we are talking about hunters here are we not ?
 
Basic premise: Ignoring data that doesn't support the desired conclusion, or intentionally limiting data points in order to not skew the result away from the desired conclusion.

This could be, for example, only firing 3-shot groups, instead of 5-shot groups, because the groups only get bigger.
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I watched the intro and explanation by way of your link but came away with a bit different take. The presenter gave the definition as "using the the same data to present both the premise and the conclusion". Nevertheless it looks interesting so I'll watch the rest later this evening.

I sometimes shoot three shot groups, but when I do they are usually one part of a set of three, or four, or even five, three shot groups using the same ammo and firearm. The issue for me is barrel cooling off time, either between shots or between groups shot. We all know barrels heat up when fired, and heated metal expands and moves around. Aside from numerous factors related to probability, ten shots heats the barrel (unless you allow sufficient cooling time between shots) and won't produce as tight a grouping as three or five shots.

Pretty basic.
 
I personally don't care a lot about this sort of thing. I am good and I know it. I am not even close to great. I try every time to do my best, and if it's ten or even twenty rounds on a target, I have a group that I will either like or hate.

A five shot group or even a fifty shot group will give a better pattern of what you expect when you take the rifle out again and take one shot. If you can get three shots into a squirrel sized target, but you miss the rest of the fifty, don't take it squirrel hunting.

Shoot as many as you want. Don't kid yourself about what can do. If a three shot one inch group is your very best and your five shot groups average about 2.5, those are the only facts you need. maybe that 300 yard shot will hit in three inches, maybe it will hit outside of a seven inch ring.

If you don't have the best of skills, a great opening and a good position, you aren't going to make that shot anyway. The best you can do is to get withing about eight inches based on your rifle, but if your skills aren't up to it, your 2.5 inch capable rifle may not even be able to come within a two foot circle at 300 yards.

Accuracy and group size are a noble and fully acceptable thing to strive for.

RELIABILITY is important. That three round inch is less than useful unless it can happen when you need it.
 
For anyone so inclined, here is a little math to help answer the question:

http://bisonballistics.com/articles/optimal-group-size-for-rifles

The math is only half the picture in my opinion. The more times I fire, the more likely my mistake will mess up the group size, and not the natural variance of the rifle. I received an e-mail from the author not long ago and he said this:

"Coincidentally, I was just made aware of a more modern version of the Grubbs study that I mentioned in that article. It turns out that due to the relatively small sample size he used (he didn't have our computers to do the work), there is a slight error in the results. While the general theory is still sound, it appears that the optimal group size is closer to 5 shots than 8, which is good news to me, since 5 is more manageable and allows for a higher resolution in any testing we want to do."

So apparently 5 really is the answer.

On the other hand - shoot, have fun, repeat. If you can shoot a 1 MOA 3 shot group every single time then you probably have a 1 MOA gun and 5 shot groups arent necessary unless you want to convince someone who is tied to the 5 shot group. If you have 2 1MOA groups and 2 1.5MOA groups, you probably have a 1.5MOA gun. The real problem is when someone shoots 1 .75" 3 shot group and then declares he has a 3/4MOA rifle.. it just doesn't work that way.
 
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Does one try to get better groupings at every trip to the range or how often do you strive for better groups? Other than to enjoy simply shooting your firearm of course.
 
Once I find a accureat load I shoot for the enjoyment an try my best for good groupings . Bad groups are on me , you know when you throw a round . At the start of the season I'll check all screws , so far all haven't changed . Look forward to shoot every Sunday as long as it doesn't rain .
 
I used to shot BR and we shot 5 shot groups in relay 5 targets for total 25 rds plus sighters. 100yds/200yds sometimes 300yds.

Today I mostly shoot 200/300yd for groups. One club I belong too has few benches that I can shoot 200/300yd from same bench.

When I get get tired shooting groups,I shot IBS HBR match and target has sighter and 5 target and you only shoot one bullet each target.

http://www.speedwelltargets.com/Pro...MIhp2l3sO82wIV2AOGCh1BJgnTEAQYAiABEgLXTfD_BwE

They make red color target for 300yds.
 
* * * Bad groups are on me, you know when you throw a round.
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That happens when guys leave the bench and start shooting from real-world 'field positions' just like they'll do when they hunt - without benefit of bipods, sandbags, or other shooting crutches.

At the start of the season I'll check all screws, so far all haven't changed.
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All screws, rings, and mounts should have been lock-tited from the git-go, and then, with a Sharpy pen, had 'witness marks' applied to their final position of torque, so that with just a quick look you can determine whether anything has loosened over time.

That's how the real snipers do it; the Fuddley McGoos, ah, not so much. :cool:
 
Keeping in mind that real snipers shooting at 1000 yards plus usualy miss the first time or two.

Its called walking in.

I saw the reenactment of the longest shot, he missed 2 or 3 times. His side kick walked him in.

The bad guys just kind of stood there scratching their heads, huh, noise, funny noise.
 
When I'm testing handloads for my hunting rifles, I shoot 4 shot groups at each powder charge. I figure that gives me a good 3 shot group, plus a flier. If all 4 are touching... well then that's just a nice bonus.
 
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