Purple Bikerr
New member
I have, and it was a real eye opener. The target does not lie. The holes on paper did not match the number of times I pulled the trigger.
Shot Placement
- Thread starter Cola308
- Start date
See if you can look at a more or less life-sized illustration of the internal organs of the human body, front/back/side. Quite the eye-opener. So you can see between the nipples has a lot of good aiming points, organ-rich?
Always shoot from eye level, and shoot twice, the good old double tap, two hands, two shots, if you cannot? Do something else! This is really forgiving when have more than one bad guy.
Remember guns are not the only answer to close quarters attack/defence! A punch to the throat is somewhat disconcerting. A palm strike, upwards, to the nose? That's kind of good too! A sidekick with the foot, to just under the knee! Ouch.
Always shoot from eye level, and shoot twice, the good old double tap, two hands, two shots, if you cannot? Do something else! This is really forgiving when have more than one bad guy.
Remember guns are not the only answer to close quarters attack/defence! A punch to the throat is somewhat disconcerting. A palm strike, upwards, to the nose? That's kind of good too! A sidekick with the foot, to just under the knee! Ouch.
OldMarksman
Staff
I know of no trainers who would advise that unless it were crystal clear that those two shots had sufficed.
If it comes to that, the defender is in very serious trouble.
I once saw some training video stating that if an attacker is advancing (rushing you with a knife, etc.) that shots to the pelvic area will be more effective than shots to the chest. The reasoning being that a person running is leaning out over his center of gravity, and is more likely to continue to run through the gunfire, than someone shot low who is more likely to double over and stop the advance.
The chest shot may be more deadly, but less immediately effective when stopping an advancing threat. It sounded reasonable, anyway. I also asked my former LE shooting instructor and he said to keep it simple and shoot for center-of-mass regardless, because if you're being charged by an attacker you won't be thinking about physics. Just shoot and "get off the X"
That last step is really tough. I've tried various simulations and airsoft exercises, and when you're startled or under a threat, the tendency is to freeze in place rather than move to the side.
The chest shot may be more deadly, but less immediately effective when stopping an advancing threat. It sounded reasonable, anyway. I also asked my former LE shooting instructor and he said to keep it simple and shoot for center-of-mass regardless, because if you're being charged by an attacker you won't be thinking about physics. Just shoot and "get off the X"
That last step is really tough. I've tried various simulations and airsoft exercises, and when you're startled or under a threat, the tendency is to freeze in place rather than move to the side.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
We've discussed targeting the pelvis a few dozen times now. For example: https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416452
A bud from work, his Son was one of those Special Ops guys deployed to Africa. Killing Kony's (lord's resistance army) in deep dark Africa. These were not nice people, Kony's had fun chopping off arms or legs off little children, just to see them crawl.
Anyway, Son took a 1911 in 45 ACP to Africa. The all metal 1911 held up better than a plastic pistol on a fore hand or back hand stroke against a slow, or stupid Kony. On a non compliant Kony (dangerous as a rattlesnake) Son would shoot them off center, shoulder area, to get them spinning. There was always the possibility the Kony had body armor, so ensure there would be no fight left, he would hit them in the head on the way down.
Anyway, Son took a 1911 in 45 ACP to Africa. The all metal 1911 held up better than a plastic pistol on a fore hand or back hand stroke against a slow, or stupid Kony. On a non compliant Kony (dangerous as a rattlesnake) Son would shoot them off center, shoulder area, to get them spinning. There was always the possibility the Kony had body armor, so ensure there would be no fight left, he would hit them in the head on the way down.
Assuming Son had the training afforded persons in his claimed line of work, he was resistant to the training, or maybe just an idiot, if he was hunting down crazed bad guys with a pistol instead of a long gun.
Even an off-center hit from a 12ga or a 50BMG hit doesn't apply enough force to spin a person around. Mythbusters did a test where they shot a human analogue dummy with a steel armor plate in the chest at point-blank range with a .50BMG rifle to see if it would be knocked backwards. The bullet was stopped in the dummy but even then, the dummy was not knocked backwards by any significant amount.
It could be that being hit off-center predisposes a person to voluntarily or reflexively spin (although I haven't noticed that effect is common in the many shooting videos I've watched), but it's not the actual force of the hit moving the person around.
It seems possible that when Son tells a story, the impact of the story could be more important than getting the details exactly right.
Good idea to mozambique your attacker. Two to the center of chest, and then one to the center of the face. He will go down and out immediately.
A simple failure drill is what I taught officers in my department, Two rapid shots to the torso....center of mass....quick assessment and if necessary a third shot to the head. The first two shots should be fired as rapidly as can accurately be done to attain greatest shocking value to the system.
The officer is attempting to cease the life threatening situation as quickly as possible.
The officer is attempting to cease the life threatening situation as quickly as possible.
OldMarksman
Staff
I do not think it prudent to take the time to reassess after two shots in a defensive encounter.
Glenn E. Meyer
New member
That doctrine was one to mitigate the bad PR from multiple gun shots. Waiting to see if your opponent is still capable of doing your harm will let you discover that said opponent is doing you harm, it would seem to me.
Of course, there are cases where the opponent is clearly disabled and the shooter continues to blast away, then the latter is in legal trouble as you shoot to stop.
There's really no set rule, you have to evaluate the opponent's action as compared to having a 'rule'. Are they still in the threat? Does this mean you take a mandated pause or is it done in parallel with your actions?
Of course, there are cases where the opponent is clearly disabled and the shooter continues to blast away, then the latter is in legal trouble as you shoot to stop.
There's really no set rule, you have to evaluate the opponent's action as compared to having a 'rule'. Are they still in the threat? Does this mean you take a mandated pause or is it done in parallel with your actions?
OldMarksman
Staff
And for that reason, training for one set response may lead to a defender acting in the same manner whether or not it is effective, and whether or not it constitutes excessive force.
Better to vary the number of shots in training.
That's not from any expertise I have, but it is based upon the way human beings react to stressful situations, as described by Rob Pincus.
OldMarksman
Staff
And afterward, they recommend pausing after two shots to see what's up?
That's funny! Based on conversations with the officers I know, and every dash cam video I've ever seen, the two shot rule is not that popular when stopping a bad guy with a gun. They are assessing as they go and stop shooting when the threat is stopped.
My current method is two center mass and one to the head as fast as I can stay on target when shooting a B 27 target. Most of the time though I am shooting as fast as I can keep three rounds in a 5" circle. Add any movement to the equation and that 5" circle or human head target becomes far more challenging. I haven't been shooting as much lately, and I can say with certainty that all of this is easier talked about than done with a pistol in hand.
For the record, Rob Pincus is one of the trainers I respect the most, and I have not met him in person. His videos should be watched repeatedly by anyone who carries a gun.
FireForged
New member
being alert, receptive and cognizant of the effects that your [use of force] is having [in the moment] is not really rocket science. Of course you do not arbitrarily halt your efforts but a lawful use of force should not be devoid of common sense measurement regarding the application method and duration.
The use of the double tap, two rounds fired quickly, is to be best used as a multiple target threat, say, two bad guys. Or three.
You are more accurate when firing twice than once where more than one threat
is presented.
Try this, put up three IDPA targets, a yard apart, stand 5 yards away. Draw and fire, one round on each, as fast as you can, do this three times.
Patch the holes, repeat, but two rounds on each this time!
Notice your hits, by comparing the patches, to the new hits.
You are more accurate when firing twice than once where more than one threat
is presented.
Try this, put up three IDPA targets, a yard apart, stand 5 yards away. Draw and fire, one round on each, as fast as you can, do this three times.
Patch the holes, repeat, but two rounds on each this time!
Notice your hits, by comparing the patches, to the new hits.
OldMarksman
Staff
That will illustrate something about shooting at three stationary targets a yard apart, the locations of which are known in advance to the defender, who knows that he will draw and fire upon the signal.
I would not consider that to represent a realistic defensive scenario.
Better: the defender's attention is drawn to someone approaching and probably asking for something, and possibly suspicious. A previously unnoticed attacker moves in from a different angle. The defender must draw, and will probably shoot the second person.
What next? Who knows?
One can try this with Simunitions in FoF scenarios. Best to vary the scenarios, and to include some that do not result in the need to use deadly force.
I think it likely that the defender will quickly learn that the idea of trying a head shot at close range against a moving attacker is a very high risk, low return gambit.
How many shots to fire? That will depend upon what unfolds, and it should not be drummed into one's routine through choreographed exercises.
FireForged
New member
I agree... it is essentially a choreographed dance that you could do blindfolded after a few times. You can get good at it but it don't make you a gunfighter.