Shot Placement
- Thread starter Cola308
- Start date
Don Fischer
New member
I've never had to use my weapon on a human but if I do, it's gonna be center mass until the threat is down. I never practice a lot at beyond 10 yds either. First of all if the attack come's from a bit farther range, it's gonna take a moment just to get the weapon out. Then just another moment for most of us to fire. I suspect the range by that time would be under 10 yds. The only way I shoot my concealed weapons is point and shoot at close range. Biggest target you'll see is center mass. I uae a couple 9mm's for carry and at 10 yds I can put all my shots into about a 12" group. I think we've all seem a guy that could bring the gun into play and get off several shot's before the bad guy could get to them. Every one I've seen has been a competitive shooter, I'm not. I'd take what I can get, center mass is it for me.
Bartholomew Roberts
Moderator
I would strongly recommend getting some additional training at a Basic Defensive Pistol course near you. There are also several nationally recognized trainers who travel around the country and teach at local ranges such as Tom Givens, Travis Haley, etc. That's almost always the best investment you can make, though it is the one people least often choose.
On shot placement, it is important to remember that the actual target you are trying to hit isn't visible to the naked eye. Bullets can deflect off path or fail to penetrate. That's why bullet construction is important.
On shot placement, it is important to remember that the actual target you are trying to hit isn't visible to the naked eye. Bullets can deflect off path or fail to penetrate. That's why bullet construction is important.
FireForged
New member
I think he is geared toward self defense training not game competition.
FireForged
New member
can you point to some case law where a person authorized to use deadly force received some sort of punitive action over their initial shot placement. I don't mean shooting a badguy when he is no longer a threat but rather some sort of negative result caused by their shot placement specifically.
john in jax
New member
There is a "zipper" technique where you draw and shoot your way up the torso. I usually practice it fro 3 to 10 yards. You want to get the pistol out and a round on the target ASAP, think snap shot center mass. Second and third shots ideally are strung vertically up the torso so if you need too you hopefully can come back down and try to put shot four in the head.
It is all about being fast and working your way up the torso. You should be training with the expectation that 1 or 2 shots may not be sufficient to stop the threat.
It is all about being fast and working your way up the torso. You should be training with the expectation that 1 or 2 shots may not be sufficient to stop the threat.
"There is a "zipper" technique where you draw and shoot your way up the torso. I usually practice it fro 3 to 10 yards. You want to get the pistol out and a round on the target ASAP, think snap shot center mass. Second and third shots ideally are strung vertically up the torso so if you need too you hopefully can come back down and try to put shot four in the head.
It is all about being fast and working your way up the torso. You should be training with the expectation that 1 or 2 shots may not be sufficient to stop the threat."
This is what I taught my Daughter for close range use. Just center the body and sling lead as the muzzle rises. Once the gun is out and firing, don't stop until the target is down or you run dry.
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It is all about being fast and working your way up the torso. You should be training with the expectation that 1 or 2 shots may not be sufficient to stop the threat."
This is what I taught my Daughter for close range use. Just center the body and sling lead as the muzzle rises. Once the gun is out and firing, don't stop until the target is down or you run dry.
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My Thoughts:
If you have ever been hunting or watched hunting shows, its customary to shoot the heart lung area. It kills the animal, but doesnt always stop it. It can and often does run 100 or more yards before going down.
If you have ever been in a been hit hard in the stomach, you know that it stops you from doing what ever you were doing. How much harder is a stomach shot vs. fist to the stomach.
The goal is not to kill the attacker but stop him from presenting a threat. And stop shooting when that threat no longer exist, anything further isnt self defense.
Two Handed Shooting: Find if you have distance. But most, a huge majority of self defense shooting done at 3 yards or less. The lady who runs the WY State Crime lab often helps with my self defense class tells us the 95+%, from her training and experience is about 5-6 feet.
Presenting the firearm to eye level requires extending the firearm to the point it can be deflected or worse taken.
In my 20 years in LE I had to use my service revolver many times, in controling suspects, building searches, etc etc. Thanking back the only time I remember using two hands is while at the range. You always have something else in the other hand, a flashlight, mirror, door knob, ticket book, and the list is endless.
In self defense it may be your child, wife, or any other person or object you would rather pull behind you to safety or out of the way while presenting your handgun.
I have no problem with two handed shooting but in self defense, I personal think that one handed shooting practice is critical. Not only that, but equal time should be spent training strong and weak hands.
If you have ever been hunting or watched hunting shows, its customary to shoot the heart lung area. It kills the animal, but doesnt always stop it. It can and often does run 100 or more yards before going down.
If you have ever been in a been hit hard in the stomach, you know that it stops you from doing what ever you were doing. How much harder is a stomach shot vs. fist to the stomach.
The goal is not to kill the attacker but stop him from presenting a threat. And stop shooting when that threat no longer exist, anything further isnt self defense.
Two Handed Shooting: Find if you have distance. But most, a huge majority of self defense shooting done at 3 yards or less. The lady who runs the WY State Crime lab often helps with my self defense class tells us the 95+%, from her training and experience is about 5-6 feet.
Presenting the firearm to eye level requires extending the firearm to the point it can be deflected or worse taken.
In my 20 years in LE I had to use my service revolver many times, in controling suspects, building searches, etc etc. Thanking back the only time I remember using two hands is while at the range. You always have something else in the other hand, a flashlight, mirror, door knob, ticket book, and the list is endless.
In self defense it may be your child, wife, or any other person or object you would rather pull behind you to safety or out of the way while presenting your handgun.
I have no problem with two handed shooting but in self defense, I personal think that one handed shooting practice is critical. Not only that, but equal time should be spent training strong and weak hands.
SonOfScubaDiver
New member
I would not bet my life on making a head shot. Paper and steel targets are one thing, but an actual moving human head is another thing entirely.
I have never heard it called the "zipper" technique, but the idea of starting around the pelvic region and working your way up is interesting. It's success, it seems to me, would rely on getting shots off fairly quickly. I will have to give it a try at the range.
I have never heard it called the "zipper" technique, but the idea of starting around the pelvic region and working your way up is interesting. It's success, it seems to me, would rely on getting shots off fairly quickly. I will have to give it a try at the range.
Jim Watson
New member
In the late 1930's my Dad's boss had occasion to shoot an armed robber. He just kept pulling the trigger as the gun climbed; belly, chest, head. Doubt he called it a zipper, though.
Some "expert" once opined that a first fast shot in any direction, hit or miss, would distract the opponent so followup shot(s) could be more deliberately aimed. Robert Heinlein agreed. But Bill Jordan said "What could be more disconcerting than a .357 in the belly button?"
Center of mass. This isn't a B Western main street showdown, the center of AVAILABLE mass might not be the vital area you would like to hit to end the attack. Shoot what you can see.
Some "expert" once opined that a first fast shot in any direction, hit or miss, would distract the opponent so followup shot(s) could be more deliberately aimed. Robert Heinlein agreed. But Bill Jordan said "What could be more disconcerting than a .357 in the belly button?"
Center of mass. This isn't a B Western main street showdown, the center of AVAILABLE mass might not be the vital area you would like to hit to end the attack. Shoot what you can see.
Psychedelic Bang
New member
Two to the chest, one to the head.. This is pretty famous. You've seen it movies. Lately its come up in conversation between me and a friend of mine who is a retired federal agent
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill
OldMarksman
Staff
It is very, very important to understand and remember that.
Yet you see many people at the range shooting at stationary targets 7 yards away.
Think about it: if someone charge from "Tueller distance", he will not be 7 yards away by the time the defender has drawn and started firing.
Nor will he be stationary.
That is excellent advice!
Bingo! The parts of the body that must be hit to effect a physical stop timely are small, hidden within the opaque envelope of the attacker's body, and moving very fast.
Does any major law enforcement agency indicate anything but center of mass shots are appropriate with a handgun? Ok, looking it up at least the LAPD allowed for a shifting of target, to the head, after failure to stop.
Sorry at this point I am going to follow the lead of the major law enforcement agencies. Easiest "procedure" to propose a defense for.
Sorry at this point I am going to follow the lead of the major law enforcement agencies. Easiest "procedure" to propose a defense for.
OldMarksman
Staff
What do you mean by "appropriate"?
Law enfacement and other trainers tell us that, to stop a moving aggressor timely, shooting repeated shots rapidly at the upper cast area is the most effective strategy--if that is possible.
Should that area be hidden, one cannot do that.
There are other things to consider if it turns out that the aggressor is wearing body armor.
Let me rephrase slightly. I feel it is most easily defended to follow "standard" operating procedure of major or local law enforcement agencies. If these agencies advocate initial shots to center of mass (when possible) I believe that it the appropriate procedure for individuals to plan on.
Because I believe this is the standing policy I think coming up with a different individual policy, especially for the first shots fired, opens one up to undue liability.
OldMarksman
Staff
Realistically speaking, I do not think that there is any kind of "standard" operating procedure regarding initial shots, or that any "individual policy" could lead to any kind of "liability"--provided that the defender had in fact been in a position that did involve the lawful use of deadly force for self defense.
Remember, the defender is not looking at area on a stationary target at the range.
The key words that pertain to the lawful use of deadly force include immediate necessity; the opportunity and ability of the attacker; and jeopardy.
Under conditions that would involve those factors, the defender will only be able to shoot very rapidly, relying upon training, to try to hit the attacker somewhere as quickly as possible, a many times as possible, and no more.
There will be no time for choosing "policy".
The purpose of targeting the upper chest area is not to shoot any particular part of the body first. It is to maximize the likelihood of hitting timely and effectively.
It is most unlikely that anyone evaluating an incident after the fact will be able to draw any conclusions about how the defender aimed his or her "first shots fired".
FireForged
New member
I think it is important to have a good understanding about use of force law but I think a good many people have their priorities a little mixed up. I will focus my efforts on the "fight".. not the potential post event courtroom drama.