Short barrel .357s
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Short barrel .357's
I have a Ruger LCR 357. I bought this revolver on a whim. I didn't have any revolvers so I thought why not. I handled the 38 LCR at my LGS and loved the trigger pull compared to a S&W so I ordered the 357.
This weapon is very light and I front pocket carry sometimes for a change from my XDS. It took me a few range trips to get good accuracy but now I am very comfortable at 7 - 10 yds. Of course I practice with 38 specials and I always shoot a few of my carry rounds (Gold Dot 38 +P geared for snubbies). Yes...I also shoot 10 or 15 magnum rounds to stay in the game. The recoil on the magnum is not a problem at all but the muzzle blast is impressive...lol.
I have a Ruger LCR 357. I bought this revolver on a whim. I didn't have any revolvers so I thought why not. I handled the 38 LCR at my LGS and loved the trigger pull compared to a S&W so I ordered the 357.
This weapon is very light and I front pocket carry sometimes for a change from my XDS. It took me a few range trips to get good accuracy but now I am very comfortable at 7 - 10 yds. Of course I practice with 38 specials and I always shoot a few of my carry rounds (Gold Dot 38 +P geared for snubbies). Yes...I also shoot 10 or 15 magnum rounds to stay in the game. The recoil on the magnum is not a problem at all but the muzzle blast is impressive...lol.
I carry a S&W M&P 340, 1-7/8 " J-Frame. I load 158 grain with 6.5-7.0 grains of Unique and get 950-990 fps. This is in the high .38+P, low .357 magnum territory. It is about as good as the Speer Short Barrel .357 magnum loads I have tried.
I also carry a S&W 3913 9mm. I use Buffalo Bore 147 grain 9mm +P. I get about 1100 fps from those. I think both of these loadings are pretty equal. I shoot the 3913 more accurately at 10 yards, but the M&P 340 conceals better.
6 of one, half a dozen of the other to my way of thinking.
I also carry a S&W 3913 9mm. I use Buffalo Bore 147 grain 9mm +P. I get about 1100 fps from those. I think both of these loadings are pretty equal. I shoot the 3913 more accurately at 10 yards, but the M&P 340 conceals better.
6 of one, half a dozen of the other to my way of thinking.
smokehouse4444
New member
Just got back from the range where I was sighting in the lasers and checking out new ammo. From advise on this thread, and seeing some of the numbers, I bought a box of the Federal 130gr HS's for my wife's SP101. I shot the requisite 38 +P's, which are very mild, then shot the CorBon 110gr JHP's that I have kept this gun loaded with. Definitely more snap. Then shot a cylinder full of the 130's and whew, there was some snap on that! Definitely could feel that, but not terrible. That's a load. I talked with my wife and explained the difference. I asked if she would rather me keep the 110's in there. She said that if she were being attacked, she wouldn't be concerned with the recoil...load it with what has the best chance of stopping the attack.
Hal,
I believe you are getting all worked up over nothing. Extreme spread in a revolver can be several things. One of the most common is the chambers may be slightly different sizes, it happens. That is why if I were to worry about it I would mike everything and even record lot numbers of ammo, as that is also a know variable. You will generally find more variation from barrel to barrel than by a short barrel. Pythons have always been slower than Smiths, for the same reason they are more accurate - A tighter barrel.
The only time the 9mm comes close to the 357 magnum is where light 110 grain bullets are used in the 357 Mag.
You are doing something wrong. You should be nowhere near the ejector (which is shrouded on a 66) during firing.
I believe you are getting all worked up over nothing. Extreme spread in a revolver can be several things. One of the most common is the chambers may be slightly different sizes, it happens. That is why if I were to worry about it I would mike everything and even record lot numbers of ammo, as that is also a know variable. You will generally find more variation from barrel to barrel than by a short barrel. Pythons have always been slower than Smiths, for the same reason they are more accurate - A tighter barrel.
The only time the 9mm comes close to the 357 magnum is where light 110 grain bullets are used in the 357 Mag.
You are doing something wrong. You should be nowhere near the ejector (which is shrouded on a 66) during firing.
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Nanuk,
I'm not worked up in the least.
I accept that individual rounds can vary - sometimes by an extreme amount.
It's no big deal as far as I'm concerned,,for the most part.
I do believe that a revolver, having multiple chambers as opposed to a semi auto only having one chamber, helps to contribute to the issue.
Re: the 9mm vs the .357 - in the guns I mentioned in my initial post - a S&W 2.5" M66 and a Browning Hi Power.
The Speer Gold Dot 125 gr clocks at 1450 fps in .357mag and the 124 gr clocks at 1220 fps in 9mm +P.
In my book, given that w/a 2.5" barrel, the .357 is going to lose some & that the longer barrel of the Hi Power is going to be closer to what Speer claims, that's plenty close enough for me to consider them equal.
Speer lists using a 4" test barrel for both.
There are a lot of people that post here that do get worked up over velocity though. I've read numerous posts where people will believe that 50 to 75 fps difference between one brand and another is a significant amount.
I'm not one of them...
About the ejector,,,,that's on me 100%. I always (incorrectly) refer to the cylinder latch as "the ejector". I try to catch that slip when I post but sometimes it gets by me.
The 66 slid down in my grip during the course of firing 6 shots & somewhere around the third shot the cylinder latch dug into the base of my thumb and tore a chunk out. Firing the last shots w/it digging in deeper and deeper was pretty painful.
I kept at it though since I figured in a real life/death situation I wouldn't have the option of stopping - might as well find that sort of quirk a gun has well in advance right?
I'm not worked up in the least.
I accept that individual rounds can vary - sometimes by an extreme amount.
It's no big deal as far as I'm concerned,,for the most part.
I do believe that a revolver, having multiple chambers as opposed to a semi auto only having one chamber, helps to contribute to the issue.
Re: the 9mm vs the .357 - in the guns I mentioned in my initial post - a S&W 2.5" M66 and a Browning Hi Power.
The Speer Gold Dot 125 gr clocks at 1450 fps in .357mag and the 124 gr clocks at 1220 fps in 9mm +P.
In my book, given that w/a 2.5" barrel, the .357 is going to lose some & that the longer barrel of the Hi Power is going to be closer to what Speer claims, that's plenty close enough for me to consider them equal.
Speer lists using a 4" test barrel for both.
There are a lot of people that post here that do get worked up over velocity though. I've read numerous posts where people will believe that 50 to 75 fps difference between one brand and another is a significant amount.
I'm not one of them...
About the ejector,,,,that's on me 100%. I always (incorrectly) refer to the cylinder latch as "the ejector". I try to catch that slip when I post but sometimes it gets by me.
The 66 slid down in my grip during the course of firing 6 shots & somewhere around the third shot the cylinder latch dug into the base of my thumb and tore a chunk out. Firing the last shots w/it digging in deeper and deeper was pretty painful.
I kept at it though since I figured in a real life/death situation I wouldn't have the option of stopping - might as well find that sort of quirk a gun has well in advance right?
If you really dislike the revolver that bad sell it. That extra 200 FPS makes a world of difference. That is why I now carry a 357 Sig. I have the best of both worlds, a 125 JHP at an honest to goodness 1450 FPS.
I was getting 1250 FPS from my 640 with 145 grn STHP and my SD was in the 5-10 fps range.
I was getting 1250 FPS from my 640 with 145 grn STHP and my SD was in the 5-10 fps range.
I did get rid of it (the M66) a long time ago.
Even if it is there,,,,I highly doubt it makes any difference at all @ SD ranges, which are measured in feet not yards.
None.Nada.Zip.Zilch.
Stretch that range out to yards & - yes - velocity becomes more important.
This is absolutely nothing more than good old common sense...
Main stream ammunition manufactures have been putting out a "one size fits all" product for decades.
The same 125 gr load that goes into a 1 7/8" snubbie fits into an 8 3/8" Long Tom & everything in between.
Using the old rule of thumb of 50 fps loss for every 1" shorter barrel.....just the difference in barrel length alone makes a difference of what?
300 fps?
Throw in ES of shot to shot variance and things get even wilder in that respect.
What that tells me is the ammo makers know there's going to be broad performance band (velocity spread) and they make allowance for it.
While optimal bullet performance may be tuned for one barrel length, perfectly acceptable performance is possible on either side of optimal - well up to a couple hundred fps.
If 50 or 100 or even 200 fps gets you all worked up, then be my guest...knock yourself out and spend you hard earned money chasing it.
I honestly don't care about a couple hundred fps.
Three hundred? Yes. That's where I begin to take a more critical look....but...there again it's all relative.
BTW - if you still feel that 100 or 200 fps is "critical" consider this.
Speer uses the same 125 grain bullet for the .38spl +P that's used for the .357 mag....
Speer only catalogs one GDHP in 125 grain for the .38/.357 mag.
(They do however catalog a different product number for the "short barrel" 125 grain..HOWEVER - the finished "short barrel" ammunition is a different product)
The .38spl +P out of the 4" test barrel is 950 fps.
The same bullet out of a 4" test barrel in .357 mag is 1450 fps.
That's a whopping 500 fps difference.
Yet - despite such a huge difference, time after time after time after time - people have done "back yard" expansion tests of both loads and report good to excellent results.
What that tells me is the the spectrum of performance is much, much wider than anybody cares to admit...
I believe I went to great lengths above to point out that "that extra 200 fps" may or may not be there.
Even if it is there,,,,I highly doubt it makes any difference at all @ SD ranges, which are measured in feet not yards.
None.Nada.Zip.Zilch.
Stretch that range out to yards & - yes - velocity becomes more important.
This is absolutely nothing more than good old common sense...
Main stream ammunition manufactures have been putting out a "one size fits all" product for decades.
The same 125 gr load that goes into a 1 7/8" snubbie fits into an 8 3/8" Long Tom & everything in between.
Using the old rule of thumb of 50 fps loss for every 1" shorter barrel.....just the difference in barrel length alone makes a difference of what?
300 fps?
Throw in ES of shot to shot variance and things get even wilder in that respect.
What that tells me is the ammo makers know there's going to be broad performance band (velocity spread) and they make allowance for it.
While optimal bullet performance may be tuned for one barrel length, perfectly acceptable performance is possible on either side of optimal - well up to a couple hundred fps.
If 50 or 100 or even 200 fps gets you all worked up, then be my guest...knock yourself out and spend you hard earned money chasing it.
I honestly don't care about a couple hundred fps.
Three hundred? Yes. That's where I begin to take a more critical look....but...there again it's all relative.
BTW - if you still feel that 100 or 200 fps is "critical" consider this.
Speer uses the same 125 grain bullet for the .38spl +P that's used for the .357 mag....
Speer only catalogs one GDHP in 125 grain for the .38/.357 mag.
(They do however catalog a different product number for the "short barrel" 125 grain..HOWEVER - the finished "short barrel" ammunition is a different product)
The .38spl +P out of the 4" test barrel is 950 fps.
The same bullet out of a 4" test barrel in .357 mag is 1450 fps.
That's a whopping 500 fps difference.
Yet - despite such a huge difference, time after time after time after time - people have done "back yard" expansion tests of both loads and report good to excellent results.
What that tells me is the the spectrum of performance is much, much wider than anybody cares to admit...
All that really matters in my mind is whether or not the bullet moving at 850 to 950 FPS (to account for short range--perhaps out to 50 feet) has the proper terminal ballistics characteristics to stop an attack effectively. I think it does.
People have a tendency to want "the best" that leads to needless optimization. The better method is to design requirements for the solution to a problem, or problem set, and determine the range of fit. The snub nosed revolver is intended for fast handling in short range encounters. I believe the 38 Special load has enough power and accuracy to stop attacks.
I load my Ruger Alaskan in 44 Magnum with the previously mentioned Speer Gold Dot Short Barrel ammunition. It is intended for defensive use against humans. It is likely inadequate for black bear, which is the largest critter I could encounter in my area. I change the ammo to moderate soft point hunting loads when I hike. I still carry a small revolver in 38 Special +P loaded with JHP in my pocket. Both guns meet my self-defense requirements when loaded appropriately.
Deaf Smith
New member
The 125gr .357 Mag load at 1400+ fps is what MADE the .357 as the number 1 stopping round. And that is why, if you can take the blast and recoil, its so much better than any .38 Spl. round.
And yes power is important just as speed and accuracy is. You just have to balance now much clout you can control and still be effective.
Deaf
And yes power is important just as speed and accuracy is. You just have to balance now much clout you can control and still be effective.
Deaf
smokehouse4444
New member
Along the same lines as the 357 short barrel, I am curious about the short barrel on my Kahr CM9. Because of this thread and some of the reading I've done, I first went with the Federal Hydra Shok 130 gr, and I am now going with the CorBon 140gr in the SP101. The BBTI charts show, however, that the 115fr CorBon +P is pretty nasty from a 3" barrel (Kahr CM9) compared to the others, but I read so much where most now are touting that the 115 is really too light. My thinking is that the faster 115 helps out the 3" barrel, do ya'll think this is a correct way of thinking, or like the 357 snub, do most advocate going a little heavier out of the pocket gun. I typically use 124gr +P Win Ranger T's or Gold Dots in the full size SIG P226
For me the 357 mag is the king of the hill for SD revolvers.
I understand that velocity is not the end all, for me it is consistency. I do not reload for max velocity, I reload for max accuracy and consistency, shot to shot (which is where accuracy come from).
It is really a Ford vs Chevy standard vs auto debate.
It is always important, at any distance. That is why the 357 is so much more effective than the 38+P.
I understand that velocity is not the end all, for me it is consistency. I do not reload for max velocity, I reload for max accuracy and consistency, shot to shot (which is where accuracy come from).
It is really a Ford vs Chevy standard vs auto debate.
It is always important, at any distance. That is why the 357 is so much more effective than the 38+P.
seeker_two
New member
Effective at what? Expansion?.....bullet construction can give you a .38Spl round that expands at lower velocity. Penetration?....see above. Energy transfer?....yes, but not as much as you think.
The only thing more you get from a .357Mag snub at close range over a .38Spl+P or 9mm is blast & recoil.
Well, let's look at what they do from snubs. According to Brassfetcher, a 158gr Speer Gold Dot .357 from a 2.5" barrel impacted the gel block at a velocity of 1047fps, penetrated 13.5", and expaned to 0.198 square inches (this averages to 0.502" diameter). Likewise, a 180gr Winchester Black Talon .357 Magnum from a 2 1/2" barrel impacted at 1092fps, penetrated 13.9", and expanded to 0.314 square inches (avg. diameter 0.632").
By comparison, a .38 Special with modern premium bullets has trouble meeting those numbers even when given the advantage of a full 4" barrel. The Speer 125gr .38 +P Gold Dot impacted at 888fps, penetrated 12.6", and expanded to 0.199 square inches (avg diameter 0.503"). The Winchester 130gr SXT .38 +P impacted at 923fps, penetrated only 9.8", and expanded to 0.299 square inches (avg. diameter 0.617"). The only .38 Spl loadings that could rival or exceed the .357 Magnum in both expansion and penetration were some of the Buffalo Bore offerings, but their velocities are much closer to standard .357 Magnum numbers than they are .38 +P.
http://www.brassfetcher.com/357%20Magnum/357%20Magnum%20Summary%20Table.pdf
http://www.brassfetcher.com/38%20Special/38%Special%Summary%20Table.pdf
To compare penetration figures using a heavier bullet for one and a light bullet for another isn't exactly fair.
How does the .38sp LSWCHP 158 gr. +P for instance stack up to the .158 gr. .357?
I'd look it up - but - I have a bunch of tile I have to grout and I can't put that unpleasant task off any longer...
How does the .38sp LSWCHP 158 gr. +P for instance stack up to the .158 gr. .357?
I'd look it up - but - I have a bunch of tile I have to grout and I can't put that unpleasant task off any longer...
seeker_two
New member
Webleymkv: I second Hal's response and will also add....What would be the practical difference in these rounds in a BG at close range? Any of those would cause significant tissue damage to vital organs. But which rounds would allow you follow-up shots? And which rounds would you practice with more often to ensure you can hit your targets without flinching or dreading the next trigger pull?
Sound and fury isn't what stops the BG's....otherwise, we'd all carry .500S&W blanks. Accurate hits are what count....and more people are accurate with .38SPL snubs than with .357MAG snubs.....
Sound and fury isn't what stops the BG's....otherwise, we'd all carry .500S&W blanks. Accurate hits are what count....and more people are accurate with .38SPL snubs than with .357MAG snubs.....
Originally posted by Hal
The Federal 158gr +P NyClad penetrated 13.1" and expanded to .232 square inches (avg. diameter .544") so while it gives slightly more expansion (due to its much
more malleable construction no doubt) it still gives a bit less penetration. However, comparing that loading to the 158gr Gold Dot still isn't quite fair because their bullet constructions are quite different. The reason that I chose the comparisons that I did is because the Gold Dot and Black Talon loadings were the only ones Brassfetcher tested from a <3" barrel, because they had similar bullet construction to the .38 Loadings that I referenced (Winchester's SXT is a descendant of the Black Talon), and because both the Speer Gold Dot and Winchester SXT are considered "modern" bullets.
Now, if we include 3" barrels in our definition of "short barrel" then we've got a bit more data to draw from. From 3" barrels, we've got the following:
.357 Magnum
Cor-Bon 125gr JHP- 1303fps, 10.7" penetration, .260 sq in. expansion (avg. diameter .576")
Federal 130gr Hydra-Shok- 1276fps, 10.9" penetration, .397 sq. in. expansion (avg. diameter .711")
Federal 158gr Hydra-Shok- 1017fps, 16.0" penetration, .109 sq. in expansion (.373" avg. diameter)
Originally posted by seeker_two
Well, for one thing the 9.8" of penetration displayed by the Winchester SXT .38 Spl loading is low enough that I would not trust it for self-defense as it does not meet, or even come particularly close, to the 12" minimum reccomended by the FBI.
Secondly, even between the Speer Gold Dots which did penetrate adequately in both calibers, the extra penetration of the .357 Magnum version would be advantageous if one were concerned about unusually large individuals (I, in fact am and that is one of the primary reasons that I choose to carry guns cahmbered for powerful cartridges like .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, and .44 Magnum).
I'm not trying to say that a .38 Special is an inadequate self-defense cartridge because that's not the case, but a .357 Magnum does offer certain advantages though they're not without cost like recoil and blast.
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I only carry guns and ammunition which I can shoot at least reasonably well. Yes, the recoil of a small-framed, lightweight revolver in .357 Magnum is quite heavy and is more than I am willing to endure for an extended range session (though other people can and do tolerate it better than I), but from an all-steel revolver like a S&W Model 60, Ruger SP101, S&W K-Frame, or Ruger Security Six, a 50-round session with .357 Magnums is not particularly painful or unpleasant for me.
Likewise, I've never found follow-up shots to be that much of an issue with a .357 Magnum revolver. Honestly, I think that the DA trigger and its reset probably slow me down more than the recoil of the .357 Magnum cartridge does, but that's not such a bad thing as it forces me to slow down just enough to get my sights re-aligned (I have to consciously force myself to slow down with the short, light, triggers of my semi-autos lest my accuracy go to pot).
I've always subscribed to the school of thought that you should choose the most powerful cartridge that you can handle in whatever type of gun you've chosen. For me, in a small to medium frame revolver, that's the .357 Magnum but for others, it may be diffferent.
Most people are more accurate still with a .22 Short, but you won't see very many people saying that it's a wise choice in a self-defense cartridge. Choosing a cartridge is a balancing act between terminal effects and ease of shooting and where exactly that balance lies varies from person to person. Just because you cannot shoot a .357 snub quickly and accurately enough to feel comfortable carrying it doesn't mean that I can't either.
The Federal 158gr +P NyClad penetrated 13.1" and expanded to .232 square inches (avg. diameter .544") so while it gives slightly more expansion (due to its much
more malleable construction no doubt) it still gives a bit less penetration. However, comparing that loading to the 158gr Gold Dot still isn't quite fair because their bullet constructions are quite different. The reason that I chose the comparisons that I did is because the Gold Dot and Black Talon loadings were the only ones Brassfetcher tested from a <3" barrel, because they had similar bullet construction to the .38 Loadings that I referenced (Winchester's SXT is a descendant of the Black Talon), and because both the Speer Gold Dot and Winchester SXT are considered "modern" bullets.
Now, if we include 3" barrels in our definition of "short barrel" then we've got a bit more data to draw from. From 3" barrels, we've got the following:
.357 Magnum
Cor-Bon 125gr JHP- 1303fps, 10.7" penetration, .260 sq in. expansion (avg. diameter .576")
Federal 130gr Hydra-Shok- 1276fps, 10.9" penetration, .397 sq. in. expansion (avg. diameter .711")
Federal 158gr Hydra-Shok- 1017fps, 16.0" penetration, .109 sq. in expansion (.373" avg. diameter)
Originally posted by seeker_two
Well, for one thing the 9.8" of penetration displayed by the Winchester SXT .38 Spl loading is low enough that I would not trust it for self-defense as it does not meet, or even come particularly close, to the 12" minimum reccomended by the FBI.
Secondly, even between the Speer Gold Dots which did penetrate adequately in both calibers, the extra penetration of the .357 Magnum version would be advantageous if one were concerned about unusually large individuals (I, in fact am and that is one of the primary reasons that I choose to carry guns cahmbered for powerful cartridges like .357 Magnum, 10mm Auto, and .44 Magnum).
I'm not trying to say that a .38 Special is an inadequate self-defense cartridge because that's not the case, but a .357 Magnum does offer certain advantages though they're not without cost like recoil and blast.
Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I only carry guns and ammunition which I can shoot at least reasonably well. Yes, the recoil of a small-framed, lightweight revolver in .357 Magnum is quite heavy and is more than I am willing to endure for an extended range session (though other people can and do tolerate it better than I), but from an all-steel revolver like a S&W Model 60, Ruger SP101, S&W K-Frame, or Ruger Security Six, a 50-round session with .357 Magnums is not particularly painful or unpleasant for me.
Likewise, I've never found follow-up shots to be that much of an issue with a .357 Magnum revolver. Honestly, I think that the DA trigger and its reset probably slow me down more than the recoil of the .357 Magnum cartridge does, but that's not such a bad thing as it forces me to slow down just enough to get my sights re-aligned (I have to consciously force myself to slow down with the short, light, triggers of my semi-autos lest my accuracy go to pot).
I've always subscribed to the school of thought that you should choose the most powerful cartridge that you can handle in whatever type of gun you've chosen. For me, in a small to medium frame revolver, that's the .357 Magnum but for others, it may be diffferent.
Most people are more accurate still with a .22 Short, but you won't see very many people saying that it's a wise choice in a self-defense cartridge. Choosing a cartridge is a balancing act between terminal effects and ease of shooting and where exactly that balance lies varies from person to person. Just because you cannot shoot a .357 snub quickly and accurately enough to feel comfortable carrying it doesn't mean that I can't either.
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Data from real police shootings shows that the 357 mag is significantly superior to the 38 Special. The reputation of the 357 Magnum as a fight stopper was made well before hollow point ammunition was in wide spread use by law enforcement. There were guys I worked with in the early 1980's that used 357 LSWC on patrol.
Blast and recoil are range issues, you will never notice it in a life threatening encounter. Follow up shot are completely dependent on your skill level. A 357 Magnum is a powerful weapon and takes dedication to master, it is not for everyone.
Like Dirty Harry said; "A man has got to know his limitations."
OkieCruffler
New member
Did someone say muzzle blast?
That's me wife shooting her Taurus 650 with a 125gr jhp running right at 1300fps. That load ran a deviation of 57fps in a 20 rd string over the chrony. And yes, she can make very quick follow up shots (only practices double taps) and keep them on COM.
That's me wife shooting her Taurus 650 with a 125gr jhp running right at 1300fps. That load ran a deviation of 57fps in a 20 rd string over the chrony. And yes, she can make very quick follow up shots (only practices double taps) and keep them on COM.