Short barrel .357s

This has not been my experience; or perhaps I am not understanding your statement.

I am wondering if you can give a bit more detail on how you arrived at this thought; are you talking snub nosed only... or ...?
Shot to shot variance can be as high as 200 fps with - well - just about any caliber.
The magnums, due to their higher velociteis, are more prone to that large a figure, however, it's still not unheard of with a non-magnum.
A very common and typical hi/low spread is somewhere around 75 fps.

BTW - it's not my thoughts on the subject, it's pure hard fact.

Just :
Reload a lot and chrono your loads.
Check any and all sources on the web and/or anywhere else and look at the individual velocities for each and every shot.

I've said this numerous times in the past. I don't get all excited about a couple/three hundered fps for one load or caliber vs another.
Why?
Simple, there's a significant chance that two round, fired back to back from the same revolver, can vary by a couple hundred fps.
 
That sounds awfully high. In the case of a cartridge producing a nominal 1,000 fps velocity, that would amount to a 20% to 30% variance. For something like a .45 auto or a .38 special, the percentage variance would be even higher. I realize that different handguns may produce different velocities, even with the same barrel length, but the same lot of ammunition fired from the same gun should produce more consistent results, don't you think?
 
When S&W introduced the 2.5" M-19 Skeeter Skelton was quite enthused about it, later he said the increased muzzle blast, flash, recoil and reduced velocity convinced him it wasn't such a Great Idea. Jeff Cooper noted that all the Magna are dependent on a long barrel to reach their full potential. One of my Dan Wessons does the job when I want to fire a short barreled .357.
 
Simple, there's a significant chance that two round, fired back to back from the same revolver, can vary by a couple hundred fps.

Again, that does not show up in my experience, or on my chronograph; specifically when looking at .357 mag data.

My last outing that I measured with Buffalo Bore Heavy .357 mag in 180 grain had the following:
HI 1489
LO 1416
AV 1452
ES 73
Sd 51

Maybe your particular revolver has quite a difference in cylinder gap between those "two round".
 
Originally posted by Hal
I fail to see any significant difference between a 124 gr 9mm out of a Browning Hi Power or any 125 gr . 357 out of a 3" or less snub.

The difference is that you're comparing a full-sized service gun to a compact CCW gun. If you want to compare a 9mm to a .357 Magnum snub, do so in comparable guns. For example, a S&W M60 with a 2 1/8" barrel is 6.56" long while a Glock 26 with a 3.43" barrel is 6.54" long. If you start shortening the barrel of the 9mm to 3" or 3 1/2" (common lengths for compact or subcompact 9mm's) then the .357 Magnum is going to be going substantially faster. Also, I think there's a pretty substantial difference between a 147gr bullet from a Browning Hi Power and a 158gr bullet going 100-150fps faster from a .357 snub, much less if you chronograph the 147gr 9mm from a small gun.

I've said this numerous times in the past. I don't get all excited about a couple/three hundered fps for one load or caliber vs another.
Why?
Simple, there's a significant chance that two round, fired back to back from the same revolver, can vary by a couple hundred fps.

That's pretty bad news because a couple hundred fps is more than enough difference to be inside or outside a particular bullet's designed velocity window. In nearly every chronograph test I've ever seen or read, an extreme spread of 100fps or more is highly unusual and may indicate a problem with either the gun or ammunition such as a weak recoil spring or inconsistent powder charges.
 
The difference is that you're comparing a full-sized service gun to a compact CCW gun. If you want to compare a 9mm to a .357 Magnum snub, do so in comparable guns.
Please refer to my first post...
I made the comment that I placed the Hi Power right down on top of the model 66 - and guess what???
They were nearly the same exact size.

Nope - I''m making a 100% fair comparison there.
If two guns are the same size and weight, where's the difference?

A snub nose K frame is a pretty hefty piece.
The small grips tht S&W has can reduce the size a litte - but - not by a whole lot.

Also, I think there's a pretty substantial difference between a 147gr bullet from a Browning Hi Power and a 158gr bullet going 100-150fps faster from a .357 snub, much less if you chronograph the 147gr 9mm from a small gun.
Excuse me - but - did you bother to read what I posted?

Who (but you) said anything about a 147 gr and/or a 158 gr.

I said 124 gr and 125 gr...

Now - let's look at the 124 gr from a Hi Power - a 124 gr +p clocks at ~ 1100 fps.
A 125 gr from a Kframe - either model 19 or 66 - clocks at .....~ 1100 fps..

Those aren't my figures BTW - the late Steve Camp posted a wealth of information on both on his web site.

That's pretty bad news because a couple hundred fps is more than enough difference to be inside or outside a particular bullet's designed velocity window. In nearly every chronograph test I've ever seen or read, an extreme spread of 100fps or more is highly unusual
Then I strongly suggest you go to the site you're referring to - BBTI - and peruse the raw data.
A spread of 100 fps is very common.

Very first one - 115 gr Corbon - hi - 1445, low - 1274 - ES 171 that's from a S&W.
The Python w/a 6" barrel doesn't fare much better
`115 gr Cor Bon - hi -1356, low - 1193 - ES - 163.
Well - maybe that's just beacuse it's a 110 gr Cor Bon eh?
Let's move on down the list to something else....

How about a Federal 125 gr...
Hi - 1523, low, 1357 ES 163...
What's significant here is that two shots were in the 13's and two were in the 15's..
That's from the S&W
Python - hi - 1433, low - 1300 ES 133

You know what?
I'm really tired of this...feel free to look it up yourself...there's plenty more that are in the mid 100 fps range..
I already know what I know...


Is 200 extreme?
Of course it is - but - it's not unheard of.
Just look around at the data people publish.
It's rather sobering how inconsistant velocities are.
 
Hal - no worries, I didn't take it as a slam at all. For those who are of a more statistical/scientific bent, the raw data is there for them to play with - and has resulted in some very interesting insights which I hadn't considered, which I think is very cool. For most people the simpler graphs and charts are sufficient - but we always try and emphasize that the data is indicative, not conclusive.

Cheers!

Jim
 
Jim,
There are some real eye openers in that data to be sure.

The Cor Bon 110 gr DPX load for instance. That's a very popular load (based on postings here and elsewhere).
Again - I go back to what I said earlier.
Based on your real world results, how in the world can you begin to expect any consistant results when one shot clocks @931 fps and another shot clocks in @ 1149 fps.?
That's a whopping 218 fps. swing from one shot to the next.

It really makes you wonder how many real world failures to stop are caused by, what amounts to, faulty ammunition, then blamed on something like poor placement or an act of God or something.

My hat's off to you for going to the trouble and expense to compile that information.
 
Quote:
The difference is that you're comparing a full-sized service gun to a compact CCW gun. If you want to compare a 9mm to a .357 Magnum snub, do so in comparable guns.
Please refer to my first post...
I made the comment that I placed the Hi Power right down on top of the model 66 - and guess what???
They were nearly the same exact size.

Nope - I''m making a 100% fair comparison there.
If two guns are the same size and weight, where's the difference?

A snub nose K frame is a pretty hefty piece.
The small grips tht S&W has can reduce the size a litte - but - not by a whole lot.

Please refer to my previous post. A K-Frame is one of the larger .357 snubs made. Most of the people looking at .357 Snubs these days are looking at small frame guns like a S&W J-Frame, Ruger SP101, Ruger LCR, or Taurus 605/650/651 all of which are smaller than a Browning Hi Power. You're cherry picking one of the larger .357 Snubs while ignoring the smaller and more common ones. If you want to look at full size autos, then let's consider the following: a Beretta 92 FS with a 4.9" barrel is 8.5" long while a S&W M67 (same size as a K-Frame Magnum) is 8.88" long. In comparing velocities of those sorts of guns, we find on BBTI's data that all the 125gr .357 Magnum loads broke 1400fps from the 4" revolver barrel but none of the 124-125gr 9mm loads could break 1300fps from the 4.9" Beretta's barrel.

Quote:
Also, I think there's a pretty substantial difference between a 147gr bullet from a Browning Hi Power and a 158gr bullet going 100-150fps faster from a .357 snub, much less if you chronograph the 147gr 9mm from a small gun.
Excuse me - but - did you bother to read what I posted?

Who (but you) said anything about a 147 gr and/or a 158 gr.

I said 124 gr and 125 gr...

Now - let's look at the 124 gr from a Hi Power - a 124 gr +p clocks at ~ 1100 fps.
A 125 gr from a K frame - either model 19 or 66 - clocks at .....~ 1100 fps..

Those aren't my figures BTW - the late Steve Camp posted a wealth of information on both on his web site.

I brought it up because comparing only one bullet weight does not tell the whole story. Many people, myself included, prefer heavier bullets and in that respect the .357 Magnum has an even greater advantage.

Also, I don't know what data from the late Mr. Camp you're looking at, but here we see a Remington full-power 125gr .357 running 1243fps from a 2 1/2" M19

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38vs357snub.htm

Here we have Federal and Remington full-power .357 loads running 1244fps and 1205fps respectively from a 3" GP100 and the Remington Golden Saber, which is not a full power loading, running 1189fps.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Range%20Evaluation%20-%20Ruger%20GP100.htm

Here we have the mid-range Remington Golden Saber again running 1189fps this time from a 3 1/16" barrel Ruger SP101 (the 145gr Winchester Silvertip is running slightly faster with a heavier bullet because it is a full-power loading).

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Ruger%20SP101%20Report.htm

Here we have the mid-range Remington Golden Saber running 1141fps from a 2 1/2" M66 (and again the full-power Winchester Silvertip is both heavier and faster).

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/First%20Shots%20with%20S&W%20Model%2066%20dash%202.htm

The data of Camp's that comes closest to supporting your comments is the 125gr Cor-Bon DPX averaging 1133fps from a 2 1/2" M19, but the DPX is not advertised as a full power load (advertised velocity is 1300fps from a 4" barrel) and Camp noted that this particular lot had trouble making advertised velocity even from a 4" barrel.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Corbon%20357%20Magnum%20125%20gr%20DPX%20Ammo.htm

Quote:
That's pretty bad news because a couple hundred fps is more than enough difference to be inside or outside a particular bullet's designed velocity window. In nearly every chronograph test I've ever seen or read, an extreme spread of 100fps or more is highly unusual
Then I strongly suggest you go to the site you're referring to - BBTI - and peruse the raw data.
A spread of 100 fps is very common.

Very first one - 115 gr Corbon - hi - 1445, low - 1274 - ES 171 that's from a S&W.
The Python w/a 6" barrel doesn't fare much better
`115 gr Cor Bon - hi -1356, low - 1193 - ES - 163.
Well - maybe that's just beacuse it's a 110 gr Cor Bon eh?
Let's move on down the list to something else....

How about a Federal 125 gr...
Hi - 1523, low, 1357 ES 163...
What's significant here is that two shots were in the 13's and two were in the 15's..
That's from the S&W
Python - hi - 1433, low - 1300 ES 133

You know what?
I'm really tired of this...feel free to look it up yourself...there's plenty more that are in the mid 100 fps range..
I already know what I know...

Guess what, the Colt Python and S&W 686 in the test were both running lots of high extreme spreads. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those guns have cylinder gaps that are excessive or at least on the high side of normal.

Also, if you look at Camp's data where extreme spreads were provided, you'll find that there was only one case of an extreme spread over 100fps (ES of 114fps with the Remington full-power 125gr load from the 3" Ruger GP100).

An isolated incident of an extreme spread over 100fps is not really much cause for concern, but if I have a gun that's consistently giving extreme spreads well over 100fps with a variety of ammo or a loading that consistently giving extreme spreads well over 100fps from a variety of guns, then I'm going to start being concerned about something being wrong with the gun or ammo.

An extreme spread of 200fps is simply unacceptable as that's enough to be outside the velocity window of many loadings. For an example of this, look at the problems that were experienced when the .357 Sig was first introduced. Rather than develop caliber-specific bullets, the ammo manufacturers originally just took 124gr 9mm bullets (which were designed to be driven at 1150-1250fps) and ran them at 1400-1450fps. The result was that the bullets simply came apart and penetrated shallowly. By reducing the velocity of most .357 Sig loadings to the 1300-1350fps we see commonly today, they were able to bring the 9mm bullets back into, or at least closer to, their designed velocity window.

Likewise, a bullet moving too slow can give us problems too. Take for example, Winchester's 158gr LSWCHP .38 Special +P "FBI Load". Winchester advertises this loading at 890fps from a 4" barrel, so we can safely assume that it's designed to work at approximately that velocity.

http://www.winchester.com/PRODUCTS/handgun-ammunition/Performance/Super-X-handgun/Pages/X38SPD.aspx

In Stephen Camp's testing, it averages 807fps from five different S&W J-Frames, which is less that a 100fps velocity reduction.

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/FBI%20Load%20Velocities%20from%20Snubs.htm

However, Camp found that while it expands well from a 4" barrel, it barely expands at all from a 2" barrel when fired into water (in ballistic gelatin, wetpack, or just about any other test media we could safely expect expansion to be even worse).

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/38%20Special%20158gr%20LSWCHP.htm

The point is that, depending on where your particular loading lies in your bullet's velocity window, an extreme spread of 200-300fps is easily enough to make the bullet overexpand, fragment, and/or penetrate shallowly or fail to expand. Because of this, an extreme spread of 200-300fps with a gun and ammo intended to be used for self-defense is, IMHO, completely unacceptable.
 
Guess what, the Colt Python and S&W 686 in the test were both running lots of high extreme spreads. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those guns have cylinder gaps that are excessive or at least on the high side of normal.
& that negates the results how?
You're talking nonsense now and grasping at straws.
How can you dismiss real world results?


Actually - I'm having quite a bit of difficulty even reading what your posting to be perfectly honest.
You keep trying to put words in my mouth & say things that I never said..

Please refer to my previous post. A K-Frame is one of the larger .357 snubs made. Most of the people looking at .357 Snubs these days are looking at small frame guns like a S&W J-Frame, Ruger SP101, Ruger LCR, or Taurus 605/650/651 all of which are smaller than a Browning Hi Power. You're cherry picking one of the larger .357 Snubs while ignoring the smaller and more common ones. If you want to look at full size autos, then let's consider the following: a Beretta 92 FS with a 4.9" barrel is 8.5" long while a S&W M67 (same size as a K-Frame Magnum) is 8.88" long. In comparing velocities of those sorts of guns, we find on BBTI's data that all the 125gr .357 Magnum loads broke 1400fps from the 4" revolver barrel but none of the 124-125gr 9mm loads could break 1300fps from the 4.9" Beretta's barrel.
#1 - I didn't, as you claim, *cherry pick* anything.
I had a model 66 snub in my hands.
I'd just finished cleaning my Hi Power and it was laying on the table.
I layed the 66 on top of the Hi Power and discovered they were the same size.
That was the last straw for the 66 as far as I was concerned.

How is that cherry picking?
 
Last edited:
Well, I've got two questions that I don't think have been mentioned here yet.

First, have any of you experimenters noticed the same degree of shot-to-shot variation with automatics, which have no gap? And on the same subject, does barrel length of an automatic seem to affect variation in measured velocities, all other things being equal?

Second, does factory ammunition for .357 and 9mm Luger ever use the same bullets?
 
Originally posted by Hal
Quote:
Guess what, the Colt Python and S&W 686 in the test were both running lots of high extreme spreads. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those guns have cylinder gaps that are excessive or at least on the high side of normal.

& that negates the results how?
You're talking nonsense now and grasping at straws.
How can you dismiss real world results?

The point is that because two specific guns display high extreme spreads, that does not make the phenomenon common. As I noted in a previous post, high extreme spreads are often indicative of an anomaly with a particular gun or ammunition. Two guns does not a large enough sample for something to be declared "common" make. If extreme spreads of 100fps or more were as common as you suggest, then why did we see only one extreme spread of over 100fps in all of the .357 Magnum chronograph tests from Hi Powers and Handguns and no extreme spreads of over 100fps from any .357 Magnum loads tested by BBTI in any of the .357 Magnum guns except the S&W 586 and Colt Python?

Actually - I'm having quite a bit of difficulty even reading what your posting to be perfectly honest.
You keep trying to put words in my mouth & say things that I never said..

Quote:
Please refer to my previous post. A K-Frame is one of the larger .357 snubs made. Most of the people looking at .357 Snubs these days are looking at small frame guns like a S&W J-Frame, Ruger SP101, Ruger LCR, or Taurus 605/650/651 all of which are smaller than a Browning Hi Power. You're cherry picking one of the larger .357 Snubs while ignoring the smaller and more common ones. If you want to look at full size autos, then let's consider the following: a Beretta 92 FS with a 4.9" barrel is 8.5" long while a S&W M67 (same size as a K-Frame Magnum) is 8.88" long. In comparing velocities of those sorts of guns, we find on BBTI's data that all the 125gr .357 Magnum loads broke 1400fps from the 4" revolver barrel but none of the 124-125gr 9mm loads could break 1300fps from the 4.9" Beretta's barrel.

#1 - I didn't, as you claim, *cherry pick* anything.
I had a model 66 snub in my hands.
I'd just finished cleaning my Hi Power and it was laying on the table.
I layed the 66 on top of the Hi Power and discovered they were the same size.
That was the last straw for the 66 as far as I was concerned.

How is that cherry picking?

In a previous post, you stated this:

Please refer to my first post...
I made the comment that I placed the Hi Power right down on top of the model 66 - and guess what???
They were nearly the same exact size.

Nope - I''m making a 100% fair comparison there.
If two guns are the same size and weight, where's the difference?

A snub nose K frame is a pretty hefty piece.
The small grips tht S&W has can reduce the size a litte - but - not by a whole lot.

And before that, you said this:

I fail to see any significant difference between a 124 gr 9mm out of a Browning Hi Power or any 125 gr . 357 out of a 3" or less snub.

So, follow me here:

You state or at least infer that, because a 125gr .357 Magnum from a <3" barrel has similar ballistics to a 9mm from a >4" barrel (no argument on that point if you're talking a 9mm +P or +P+) and your M66 is roughly the same size as a full-size 9mm, in this case a Browning Hi-Power, that the .357 snub has no advantage over the full-size 9mm.

I responded to this by pointing out that many, if not most, .357 Magnum snubs are substantially smaller than your M66 was, and thus are also smaller than your Hi-Power, so the .357 snub does have a size advantage over a full-size 9mm. I also pointed out that in order to get a 9mm the same size as a small-frame .357 snub, you have to go to a compact or subcompact model with a barrel of 3-3.5" which will, in turn, produce lower velocity than either the .357 Magnum snub or the full-size 9mm.

To that, you replied that your comparison was "100% fair" and completely ignored the fact that there are many .357 snubs available which are much smaller than your M66 but still produce similar velocity.

By choosing to compare only one of the larger .357 snubs even though I pointed out that there are many smaller .357 revolvers available, you've cherry picked the guns being compared in an attempt to negate the size advantage that a .357 snub can offer over a 9mm that delivers similar ballistics.

As I pointed out before, the S&W Model 60 with a 2 1/8" barrel has an overall length of 6.56". That's a fairly reasonable representative gun for a small-frame .357 snub as it's neither the largest nor the smallest available. Now, there is no 9mm semi-auto pistol currently made by S&W, Ruger, Glock, Beretta, CZ, Sig, HK, Browning or any other manufacturer that I am aware of that has both a barrel longer than 4" and an overall length of less than 7". So, in order to get a 9mm semi-automatic pistol that is the same size or smaller than a S&W Model 60 with a 2 1/8" barrel, you will have to get one with a barrel shorter than 4" which will reduce the muzzle velocity of a 124gr bullet to less that that of a full-power 125gr bullet from the M60. Therefore, the S&W M60 has an advantage of either size or power over a 9mm semi-automatic depending on which compromise you choose to make with the auto.
 
Originally posted by Blue Train
First, have any of you experimenters noticed the same degree of shot-to-shot variation with automatics, which have no gap? And on the same subject, does barrel length of an automatic seem to affect variation in measured velocities, all other things being equal?

One thing which can cause high extreme spreads in a semi-automatic is a weak recoil spring. If the recoil spring is weak, the slide may open a bit prematurely and allow more propellant gas than usual to escape out the breach rather than propel the bullet (a small amount of gas leakage from the breach is normal and unavoidable). Buffalo Bore actually has data specifically about this on their website regarding their 10mm ammunition. Tim Sundles states that installing a heavier recoil spring when shooting his 10mm ammo dropped the extreme spreads in one gun from 70fps to 35fps and from 100fps to 50fps in another.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=114

Second, does factory ammunition for .357 and 9mm Luger ever use the same bullets?

While they may use bullets of the same design, they are not exactly the same as .38 Special and .357 Magnum normally use .357" jacketed bullets while .380 Auto, 9mm Parabellum, .38 Super, and .357 Sig normally use .355" jacketed bullets, in both calibers, cast bullets may be 1-2 thousands larger than jacketed. To my knowledge, however, Speer Gold Dots are the only commonly available JHP bullets which have significant design differences between one caliber and another. With most other bullets like Remington Golden Saber, Winchester Silvertip, Hornady XTP, and Federal Hydra-Shok, a .357 Magnum and 9mm driving the same bullet design of the same weight at the same velocity can be expected to perform very similarly to each other.
 
I responded to this by pointing out that many, if not most, .357 Magnum snubs are substantially smaller than your M66 was, and thus are also smaller than your Hi-Power, so the .357 snub does have a size advantage over a full-size 9mm. I also pointed out that in order to get a 9mm the same size as a small-frame .357 snub, you have to go to a compact or subcompact model with a barrel of 3-3.5" which will, in turn, produce lower velocity than either the .357 Magnum snub or the full-size 9mm.

To that, you replied that your comparison was "100% fair" and completely ignored the fact that there are many .357 snubs available which are much smaller than your M66 but still produce similar velocity.
I ignored the small frames for, from my perspective, a very valid reason.
I neither have nor would own one,,,period..
I dry fired a J frame once and put it back on the counter. Buying it would have been a total waste of money.
All the positives of a J frame disappear when you have to change you finger position mid trigger pull...

I would also not at this stage of my life buy or own a Ruger D/A.
The Ruger trigger is all wrong for me.
Same with Taurus, Colt,,,,,you name it...
Including BTW, a K-frame Smith w/a round butt.

Far and away accuracy is my strong point.
That's one area where I will accept no compromise.

As for the wuestion of how much difference there is between a Jframe (or some other small "pocket .357) and a compact or sub compact 9mm,,,,,I really have no desire or need to invetigate it.
It's a 100% meaningless and useless waste of my time.
If it's something you wish to chase down, knock yourself out - or don't - it's 100% up to you.
 
Quote:
I responded to this by pointing out that many, if not most, .357 Magnum snubs are substantially smaller than your M66 was, and thus are also smaller than your Hi-Power, so the .357 snub does have a size advantage over a full-size 9mm. I also pointed out that in order to get a 9mm the same size as a small-frame .357 snub, you have to go to a compact or subcompact model with a barrel of 3-3.5" which will, in turn, produce lower velocity than either the .357 Magnum snub or the full-size 9mm.

To that, you replied that your comparison was "100% fair" and completely ignored the fact that there are many .357 snubs available which are much smaller than your M66 but still produce similar velocity.

I ignored the small frames for, from my perspective, a very valid reason.
I neither have nor would own one,,,period..
I dry fired a J frame once and put it back on the counter. Buying it would have been a total waste of money.
All the positives of a J frame disappear when you have to change you finger position mid trigger pull...

I would also not at this stage of my life buy or own a Ruger D/A.
The Ruger trigger is all wrong for me.
Same with Taurus, Colt,,,,,you name it...
Including BTW, a K-frame Smith w/a round butt.

And so we finally reach the crux of the issue. It sounds as though the issue, when we get right down to it, is that you have problems with DA revolver triggers. That's fine, you should certainly use whatever works best for you, but please realize that DA revolvers, including small frames, can and do work for a lot of other people. Just because something doesn't work for you, that does not mean it won't work or has no advantage to someone else.
 
And so we finally reach the crux of the issue. It sounds as though the issue, when we get right down to it, is that you have problems with DA revolver triggers.
As a matter of fact - yes -I do have ,not problems per say, but, a definite and pronounced preference for the D/A pull of a S&W K frame....espcially the square butt w/the stock over sized target grips.
The model 66 - which I spoke of in my original post & the gun by which I made the comparison with, was both stainless steel and had the round butt frame - two strikes against it right out of the gate.
I was willing to overlook the stainless steel aspect as a compromise between my preference for carbon steel vs something that would be more suitable for every day carry.
(& yes - I do have several other stainless steel guns - I just don't care for stainless - same with "Tupperware" - I have a few of those too - but - I prefer good old carbon steel - - -however - I'm not a fanatic about it)

I was also willing to compromise on the round butt it had, provided I could "put em where I wanted them to go".
It turned out that w/a 125 gr. .357 load, accuracy was "acceptable" - but - it came w/a price tag.
I could keep all six shots in the X ring of a B-27 @ 25 feet (not yards..Im decent but not that good) shooting rapid D/A - but - the ejector would tear the living crap out of my hand as the gun recoiled.
Shooting three or four strings like that wasn't any fun...

158 gr loads were a whole different matter.
The gun did not like 158 gr loads & it also didn't like lead.
That right there was a foul tip & then strike three...

158 gr. Golden Sabers - the only 158 gr. .357 mag load I tried in it to be perfectly honest - could not stay w/in the X ring @ 25 feet.
158 gr .38 spl lead SWC (my own handloads) literally went all over the place w/several of them keyholing.

When I got the gun home & cleaned it & scrubbed the leading out to the barrel, I ran a cotton ball down the bore, shined a light in there & through a magnifying glass was able to pick up some strands hanging in the bore.
No real problem there - new gun/rough bore, I could either fire lap it w/jacketed or hand lap it & take care of that issue.

(& yes - it was the bore & not the ammo. The same load shoots fine out of my 6" barrel model 19 - it always has for the last 30 some years.
It (the 158 gr lead .38spl handload) also shoots fine out of my Marlin Cowboy II. I shoots "dirty" but fine. Unique powder is like that...)

It was then that the incident w/the Hi Power took place.
The HP was on the table & I noticed how similar in size both guns were.
I looked around at the facts and figures of the .357 Mag, 125 gr load vs the 124 to gr 9mm Luger +P loads & made the decision to just dump the 66 and not waste time diddling with it.

That gun was cursed from the beginning anyhow..
It started life as a Walther PPK/s that turned into a 10 shot S&W 617 - both of which I also hated.

Maybe you should learn how to pull a trigger ....
Why?
I already know how to squeeze one ;).
Which is something I can't do right w/a J-Frame - or going up the scale a bit - an L frame...I wouldn't have one of those things either.
K and N - yes - no problem...
J and L - no way...
1911 pattern - no problem..
 
All right Webley...just received my new ammo shipment which includes the 130gr Fed Hydra Shok JHP low recoil. I decided to try it first over the CorBon 140 thinking the recoil may be less for my wife. We will see, and thanks for all of the information and explanation.

By the way, why does Federal put these HS's in a box that you basically have to break to get into. I had a box of 380's for the longest time, and everytime I would pick the box up with the broken tab it would spill out all over. Maybe there is a trick to it that I don't know.
 
I carry a 640 every day. It took a good amount of practice to get really reliable accuracy, as I shoot semi's a lot more at the range. But that was years ago now, its a sturdy, easy-to carry gun with a lot of power for its size.
Small frame .357's aren't for everyone. But if you can handle the weapon, it is a nice package.
I even bought a sweet factory engraved no-lock a year or so ago, and its now my edc. To each his or her own...
 
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