shoplifting at walmart is hazardous to your health

People have died after receiving a traffic ticket. It wasn't the ticket that killed them.

People have died after being pepper sprayed. It was't the pepper spray that killed them.

Running and struggling with someone while being high/stoned/unfit can lead to an untimely demise. The ultimate question is if the LP agents were being reasonable in their efforts to detain the man, and whether their actions could have reasonably led to this result.

AFA the 'crowd comments', I've been involved in incidents that I didn't RECOGNIZE from the 'crowd comments', so I can easily disregard them. The reporters don't want anyone saying something so boring as, "well they grabbed him and he fought them, he hit them, they controlled him and then he expired", so they don't record anyone who does.


Larry
 
I notice from the article that he was face down and handcuffed.

This has been known to sometimes cause suffocation, and may be a possible explanation for the suspect's demise.
 
Got to be the pits.....

might have to face criminal charges in a death over a Walmart job...gah!
go to prison and tell them you accidentally killed a shoplifter :eek:

obvious these fellas are kinda short on the common sense. Yeh he should have been detained and held for the police. Hopefully the part about kicking him isnt true. Why would you leave a person laying on hot asphalt handcuffed :confused: If I was in loss control I would catch them..but its not my job to abuse or get into a fistfight and get hurt... If they pulled a knife or gun I would tell then bye-bye and give the police a good descritpiton. Taking a $50.00 loss compared to a lawsuit that might lead to hundreds of thousands or millions in liability. Do the math.
 
butch50 said:
It's kind of like the principle that you can not actually tax a corporation - they just add the tax cost on to their product and their customers pay those taxes.
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Isn't that like saying you can't tax an individual because he'll just demand a higher salary to compensate?

And you can't tax a person's estate because the person will just work harder while he's alive? :eek: :rolleyes:
 
If not for his actions nothing bad would have happened.

I think there is a difference in saying that Wal Marters killed him than saying that he died while being subdued by WM

We don't know how, why, when, or if they kicked him.

Is there a duty to render CPR in this case, if there is WM better be able to prove that they provided the education.

I've seen cops on Cops just standing around waiting for EMS to arrive when they are just a few feet away from a shot or stabbed citizen.

No matter how you look at it the family is going to much more prosperous than this clown probably would have ever made them had he lived
 
Isn't that like saying you can't tax an individual because he'll just demand a higher salary to compensate?

And you can't tax a person's estate because the person will just work harder while he's alive?
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Tyme, how much of the tax increases on tobacco and gasoline do you think comes out of their bottom line, the profits, the bonuses and salaries of the executives...?

When these taxes go up, the price of a pack or a gallon go up,
and the consumers DO NOT just go and buy less of the stuff to compensate.

-blackmind
 
Isn't that like saying you can't tax an individual because he'll just demand a higher salary to compensate?
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I wish!

But it is apples/oranges. A business "sells" a product or a service. The business catalogs all of the costs involved in producing their product/service, and that becomes their base cost. They add whatever profit the market will bear on to that, and that becomes the sale price.

Taxes are simply a cost to a business. That cost is a component of thier base price, and that price is paid by the consumer of that product/service. You can't tax a business because they act as a cost conduit. All taxes in this country are ultimately paid by the consumer - you and me.

For instance (an over simplistic example but it makes the point), if the Feds decided to add a $100 tax on to every car manufactured, then the sticker price of every car manufactured would rise by $100, and us car buyers would be paying it.

In the case of shoplifting, the Walmart customers pay the cost by paying a bit more for the products. The only real reason that Walmart has security is because if they didn't they would quickly lose control of the store to the druggies out there and then they would have nothing to sell.

I suspect that this 30 year old man was a bit retarded or something - look at what he was stealing. What normal 30 year old man steals a bb gun and diapers? Something doesn't add up. He may have had mental issues along with physical issues - a normal healthy 30 year old shouldn't have died from that treatment, unless they were far more brutal than reported, or he had asthma or something debilitating.
 
I think some here are thinking that they purposely killed the guy. That when he walked out the door, they were out to kill him.

I don't think that was the case.
 
I'm just amazed how many responded with something along the lines of, "he got what he deserved," or, "oh well. he shouldn't have stolen something."

Don't forget, people. There is such a thing as legal precedent. You have to think this thing through to the point where it could actually affect YOU I guess, before you start to give a damn.

For example, if it becomes acceptable to kill someone for stealing, then it follows logically that it would also be permissable to kill someone on suspicion of stealing. Maybe you or one of your kids.

Screw it. Death penalty for any violation of the law. Let them get what's coming to them. :rolleyes:
 
I do not believe they killed the guy on purpose, but I do believe they took his life due to negligence. There is a direct causation here. The negligence was very likely due to poor training. A person face down on 100 degree pavement in handcuffs certainly indicates poor training. Whether he was kicked or not is open for debate, and whether he was given CPR or even whether the employees were trained or needed to be trained in CPR is open for debate, but irrelevant. A face down handcuffed suspected shoplifter in the parking lot is pretty clear negligence. If you detain someone in your custody you are responsible for their safety. The training of loss prevention employees was provided by Wal-Mart, or at the very least endorsed as acceptable by Wal-Mart standards if the training was recieved elsewhere (unlikely). Therefore, the Wal-Mart corporation is culpable. I'm thinking manslaughter would be the appropriate charge for the employees, and the Wal-Mart corporation appears to be responsible.

Before you condemn this man of theft, remember he was never formally charged with theft. He was killed in a Wal-Mart parking lot by Wal-Mart employees because they suspected him of theft. How many times have people on these very forums complained about having their bags checked at the Wal-Mart exits because a strip was not deactivated on a DVD at the checkout counter? Suppose the strip on this man's purchased BB gun was not deactivated. Does that give Wal-Mart license to kill him because they suspect him of theft? Perhaps he did what people on this very forum, and THR as well have said they would do, and kept walking out the door. Perhaps he was one of our own posters, or took advice from these forums or THR. Did anyone see him conceal these items? Did an employee remove a dead man's reciept? I certainly hope Wal-Mart has some video tape to prove their accusations. We do not know Mr. Driver stole anything at all, yet we condemn him as a thief, parroting the Wal-Mart line of defense.

But then, I'm not a lawyer.
 
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I don't think any charges should be filed against anybody yet. I heard the term legal precedent mentioned, and I would fear the opposite. Start giving away too many rights and soon we'll be like jolly ol' England. Someone will break into your house and you'll be asked to look away or take other measures to avoid provoking the burglar. Like maybe help him load your stuff in his van.
 
ummm..... when you detain someone thay are in your custody. I would assume that you have certain responsibilites when you detain a person as to his safety and welfare because you have him restrained. If someone dies while you have him in custody.....I would assume you better have your ducks lined up in a row. Because one uh-oh could probably buy you a lot of grief.

yes he stole merchandise for the store which makes him guilty of theft. He should be punished for that. I dont think the penalty for theft is death.

Even in the performance of a legitmate arrest or dentention in Texas you can only use necessary force to make the peerson cease and desist. I dont know what they meant in the article by resisting. If he is down on the ground and he is resisting going in handcuffs then you can use whatever necessary force to get him in handcuffs... I wouldnt break his arms to do that though. :eek:

If you use anything above necessary force then you just broke the law and can get in trouble.

Like I said the FYI is kinda skimpy I really dont know who did what. Wait to see what the corner says.
 
Not exactly Tyme: The taxes that are imposed on us, are imposed on us on a sliding scale and it doesn't matter where we work, we still pay the taxes. If I changed jobs I would still pay taxes, if I made more money after changing jobs I would pay more taxes because of the way the tax structure is set up.

Consumers are at the bottom of the tax chain. We pay just about every tax there is.

Use a loaf of bread for example: You pay $1.75 for it at the market. That loaf of bread is comprised of about $0.01 worth of grain, and about $0.10 of bakery costs. Why does it cost so much then?

You pay for the wheat, which includes the taxes that are imposed on the farmer (including property, school, fuel, income) then you pay for the grainery storage costs, and then for the trucking (all kinds of taxes on the trucking, fuel taxes, road taxes, county taxes, etc), then you pay for the mill to turn the wheat to flour, and then more trucking to the bakery, and the cost of the bakery (all kinds of taxes there too) and then more trucking from the bakery to the store and then the store charges you what it cost them including all of the taxes that have been accruing to that loaf of bread as it travels along becoming a loaf of bread on the shelf at your store.

At each step of the way (farmer, trucking, grainery, trucking, mill, trucking, bakery, trucking, store) the loaf of bread picked up costs, including all the associated taxes each of those business incur, as it moved along, and profit as well of course. So that of the $1.75 you pay about $1.00 (my guess only) is for taxes at various levels that are part of the cost.
 
Each step in the process adds profit as well. I don't know what the numbers shake out to, but you can see that the end user of a product, us generally, pays for all the taxes that went into that product at every level. That is why I say you can't tax a corporation. They just pass it on down to the consumer.

Bear that in mind next time you hear politicians wanting to tax big business....and if they do it ~ get ready to pay it.
 
Killing a man in front of an attorney? The plot has really thickened - read this:

Cleveland man died last Sunday after a scuffle with security guards at the Walmart Super Center located at 6626 FM1960 in Atascocita.


According to witnesses, Stacy Driver ran out of the store and was pursued by Walmart loss prevention employees. A short time later, Driver was dead, and the Walmart employees were trying to explain the last moments of his life to police.

Charles Portz said he was getting out of his car when he saw a heavy blonde haired man being chased by five people who appeared to be security or store employees. He said he saw them wrestling the man to the ground. "The blacktop was extremely hot," said Portz "He had no shirt on and they wouldn't let him up off the blacktop." He said one of the men had Driver in a chokehold and had his knee in the back of his neck as the men tried to subdue him. "He kept trying to get up and they kept pushing him back down," Portz said.


According to Portz, Driver began to plead with them men. "He's begging, 'Please call an ambulance, let me up, do something, I'm gonna die," said Portz. He said the loss prevention employees called the police more than once, but another bystander called for an ambulance after realizing Driver was in trouble. Portz said he eventually began to plead with the Walmart employees. "I told them, this guy doesn't look like he's breathing," Portz said, "They said, 'He's all right." He says he continued to plead with the men, pointing out that the man's fingernails were turning gray. "They said he's just high on something," adding, "They just kept him pinned down for twenty minutes or more until the ambulance came." He said he believed Driver was dead when the ambulance left with him, but he was not certain.

The store employees could not have known that the witness who was pleading with them to let Driver get up from the hot pavement was a high profile Houston attorney, from the Portz and Portz law firm. He said after the man was handcuffed he continued trying in vain to persuade the Walmart employees to allow him to get up, even pointing out that a second pair of cuffs could be used to attach the ones already on Driver to a nearby truck trailer. "The problem is they kept him down on the blistering concrete with no shirt on," Portz reiterated. He said law enforcement arrived at about the same time as the ambulance.
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Walmart has a major problem with this incident.
 
Walmart has a major problem with this incident.
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If that story is true, and there is no real reason to doubt it,Walmart and the individuals involved should have a major problem.

Just out of curiosity, is there any reason that Portz or his firm could not represent the family in a law suit.

Another quick question.

What would you do if you observed this type of criminal behavior (assuming the lawyers tale is true)by the Wally attack team.
Even though the guy started the series of events would you use force to render aid to a man in obvious distress?

What would the legal repercussions be if you did?
 
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