Shooting to Reset a Bad Practice?

I drove a 5 speed manual in London three years ago, left hand on shifter, right hand on steering wheel-why would it be difficult to shoot the way the pistol wants to? I have a lot of guns, none shoot exactly the same, nor do I expect them to-
I don't understand why anybody would.
 
Being an old revolver guy I’ve always shot releasing the trigger completely, but now thanks to using the short resets on my 9mm semi’s I’ve gotten into the bad habit of occasionally locking up myGP100 due to its false reset.

Its a long established fact that when people act without conscious thought (call it instinct or muscle memory or any other name you think fits) the majority of people will do what they have trained/practiced doing.

Most common examples are finding your mouth (your hands know, because you've done it so often) or something like your foot "knowing" where the brake is after you've got a bit of experience.

This applies to firearms as well, and there is a "trap" in that. "customizing" your trigger pull and release can put you at a disadvantage if you aren't "driving" what you're used to.

If you have and shoot more than one gun, getting "one gun specific" can be trouble when you've got a different gun. Decades ago I was carrying a friend's shotgun (Auto 5 ) and not my Model 12. Pheasant took off, lined out, clout shot, and I punched off the safety and pulled the trigger.
Nothing.
Actually did it twice more before giving up. Same results.
Realized why it had happened as soon as my focus was off the bird.

I'd been shooting my model 12, and only my model 12 for decades. In my hands it ran on "feel" and did pretty good. My friends Browning has the safety behind the trigger, and I KNEW THAT, but my hands did the model 12 drill punching the safety in front of the trigger...

If you practic speed with a certain gun, be sure that's the one you're going to have in your hands when you need it.

In that regard, I think there is something to fully releasing the trigger (all pressure off) before pulling again. It works with every gun that isn't broken and prevents the risk of short stroking and jamming the trigger.
 
Pretty much my opinion.

My daughter and I practice "blind" drills with every pistol we have. We lay them out at random and grab one, eyes closed, then engage.

Our USPSA pistols have had trigger work but everything else is stock. I'll toss my 1911 in there occasionally as well.

The lesson I taught her was to adapt to what's in your hand.

.. but, again, this is just my opinion. We all know what opinions are worth.
 
This is so true, that’s why I now ignore the reset on my semi’s and just shoot them like my revolvers. I also use the same grip on my semi’s as my revolvers. I know it’s not optimal but I’ve made it work for my pistol shooting requirements. My whole goal is to be able to keep at least 90% of my shots within a 5” circle out to 12yds, while pulling the trigger as fast as I can. In reality they are just for SD, I don’t hunt and I’m not good enough to be a target shooter anymore due to poor eyes and being less than steady anymore.
 
I don't think I had ever heard the term "trigger reset" until the recent flap over the CSX. Maybe I had and just never paid much attention to it. I had to google it to understand what the complaint was. Even after finding out what the "problem" was, I still couldn't really find it. I pull the trigger. I let the trigger go. I pull it again. However I do understand now what they're talking about. Apparently they're trying to "run" the gun as fast as possible so they "ride" the reset so they can shoot again as quickly as possible? Is that right?

At one point shooting my CSX I did experience it. OH...that's it? I call that short stroking the trigger. I've done it before with other guns too, especially revolvers when trying to shoot too fast. I considered it to be an operator error, just like "short stroking" a pump shotgun.
 
I am with AB on this. If the user doesn't operate the gun correctly, allowing the trigger to fully reset, that is user error.

I have a Hi Power that I don't like to shoot as much because it has a longer reset and I will sometimes shortstroke (not allowing it out fully to reset and pulling it anew) it after a first shot, basically what I am accustomed to doing on my 1911 in terms of travel, and the gun doesn't go bang. The gun didn't malfunction. I did.

I am not going to carry the gun for SD because I am prone to have this issue with it, but the gun operates absolutely fine. It is a fun gun to shoot and quite reliable when operated properly.
 
....I now ignore the reset on my semi’s and just shoot them like my revolvers. I also use the same grip on my semi’s as my revolvers. I know it’s not optimal but I’ve made it work for my pistol shooting requirements.
Pretty much my procedure as well....I shoot revolvers 3x as much as semi-autos, though I regularly carry a Sig P365. What I've found over the years is that I come almost completely out with the trigger finger when firing...obviously a revolver necessity...even when practicing with my semi-autos.

I see no harm in this from a self defense perspective, although it may cost a handgun games competitor additional split time...a factor no doubt for high level competitors.

Thinking it over, I wonder if even a high level competitor would 'ride' the reset in an intense self defense shooting encounter. You'll fight as you've trained, I truly believe, but the adrenalin involved might overshadow years of training....what say you guys that have done it "for real"?

Rod
 
Thank you, this to me is more about shooting to reset than what has been discussed so far, which seemed more about the review process and how to fairly or appropriately review something.

I actually tend to agree to a point on this. Shooting to reset works well when the pistols in question all have the same reset. When they don’t then you can short stroke the trigger and end up with what some call trigger freeze. It’s happened to me as I have a number of pistols with different triggers (though these days I’m in the process of reducing what I have). There’s a balance here in that you don’t want/need to necessarily come completely off the trigger to the point where your trigger finger touches the interior of the trigger guard, but if you’re trying to release to just that point of reset I think you’re setting yourself up for potential failure. I also don’t really think it buys you that much speed. Watch some competition shooters. A good number of them practically slap the trigger when shooting at speed at certain distances. Their control of the firearm physically is such that they can maintain their sight alignment through that more gross motion of their trigger fingers, or at least through practice they know the deviation that will result from doing so won’t be a problem at the given distance.

There’s also the notion of “trapping the trigger”. A number of people I’ve seen when shooting for accuracy will fire a shot, hold the trigger to the rear, slowly release the trigger to the reset, then press the trigger again. I do it sometimes too. The idea, and wild cat touched on it, is that the less trigger motion overall the less opportunity to disrupt your sight picture. I think there’s truth to that. The problem I’ve seen is this is absolutely not the way to shoot at speed. At speed you want to be resetting the trigger as the pistol is cycling, so that as the muzzle comes back down on target you can press that next shot immediately without waiting to then let the trigger forward. If you get in the habit of trapping the trigger it can make you slower at shooting at speed. There are idiosyncrasies to what shooting to rest does or doesn’t mean, or more accurately should or shouldn’t mean depending on the goal.


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Exactly. You said it much more clearly than me. But you’ve managed to capture my thoughts. And that’s why when people are overly picky about a reset on a trigger, I see it more of a shooter problem, not a gun problem.


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbWfwQyglmA

The above referenced YT vid may be what the OP is referring regarding trigger reset.
Folks, do watch the video from professional competitive shooter JJ Racaza.
I barely understand his or the technique.

JJ Racaza is able to fire multiple handgun rounds very quickly and accurately. He's extraordinary as are all the competitors in that class of skill & capability. The video speaks of not using reset as it hinders speed & accuracy (I think that's what's being said as I admit as just me watching the vid a couple times is way over my head).

My main experience was with LE and Glocks. While accuracy was important, Glock and my limited LE training always taught to try to feel the trigger reset. Maximum speed was never a goal. Anything approaching competitive shooting speeds would have been all on one's own time & expense.

If this isn't what the OP is speaking of, OP please comment. Otherwise, again, I think this video might be a prime example of why the OP started the thread.


It’s definitely related. The issue I’m complaining of is people not learning the gun, and then criticizing the gun for it. The shooter in the video obviously knows his gun perfectly. But suppose he picked up an unfamiliar gun and rode the reset too closely and ended up with a frozen trigger and then blamed the gun for it. (The shooter in the video would not do that, I’m just stating a hypothetical.)

Anyway it’s this tendency to expect all guns to reset the same and criticize the ones that don’t that bugs me.
 
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Its a long established fact that when people act without conscious thought (call it instinct or muscle memory or any other name you think fits) the majority of people will do what they have trained/practiced doing.

Most common examples are finding your mouth (your hands know, because you've done it so often) or something like your foot "knowing" where the brake is after you've got a bit of experience.

This applies to firearms as well, and there is a "trap" in that. "customizing" your trigger pull and release can put you at a disadvantage if you aren't "driving" what you're used to.

If you have and shoot more than one gun, getting "one gun specific" can be trouble when you've got a different gun. Decades ago I was carrying a friend's shotgun (Auto 5 ) and not my Model 12. Pheasant took off, lined out, clout shot, and I punched off the safety and pulled the trigger.
Nothing.
Actually did it twice more before giving up. Same results.
Realized why it had happened as soon as my focus was off the bird.

I'd been shooting my model 12, and only my model 12 for decades. In my hands it ran on "feel" and did pretty good. My friends Browning has the safety behind the trigger, and I KNEW THAT, but my hands did the model 12 drill punching the safety in front of the trigger...

If you practic speed with a certain gun, be sure that's the one you're going to have in your hands when you need it.

In that regard, I think there is something to fully releasing the trigger (all pressure off) before pulling again. It works with every gun that isn't broken and prevents the risk of short stroking and jamming the trigger.


Well said


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I've never consciously "ridden the reset", but when I installed a trigger that extended 1/16" further into the trigger guard than my other 1911s, I had a few failures to reset.
I ground the extra length from the trigger, and had no more issues.
The flip side, is the shooter whose finger makes contact with the front of the trigger guard and a quarter-inch of daylight is visible between finger and trigger between shots, and that seems to cause no harm, either.
 
I too have never really gotten the obsession with trigger reset, particularly the whole "must have a tactile and audible reset" phenomenon. Personally, I have always been more concerned with the quality of the trigger pull than the reset. Then again, there are a lot of, for lack of a better term, "trendy" practices in the shooting world that I don't subscribe to (the thumbs-forward grip being a particular eye-roll for me). It seems to me that a lot of people have only shot polymer-frame, striker-fired guns and when they try something with significantly different handling characteristics, they have issues.

I own, shoot, carry, and have experience with a wide variety of guns some of which operate drastically differently than others. Because of this, I find myself eschewing techniques like riding the reset, thumbs-forward grips, and using the slide stop to release the slide because these techniques don't work well, or sometimes don't work at all, with some of the guns I own. Some might argue that by eschewing these techniques I'm not getting "optimal" performance out of certain firearms, but people shot handguns and did just fine without the current "trendy" techniques and I'd prefer to be able to use the widest array of firearms I can with the least amount of trouble.
 
I own, shoot, carry, and have experience with a wide variety of guns some of which operate drastically differently than others. Because of this, I find myself eschewing techniques like riding the reset, thumbs-forward grips, and using the slide stop to release the slide because these techniques don't work well, or sometimes don't work at all, with some of the guns I own. Some might argue that by eschewing these techniques I'm not getting "optimal" performance out of certain firearms, but people shot handguns and did just fine without the current "trendy" techniques and I'd prefer to be able to use the widest array of firearms I can with the least amount of trouble.

I get what you’re saying, but I also think that there’s a potential trap in this type of logic. Let’s take reloading a revolver as an example. When I was taught to reload a revolver, I was taught to transition the revolver to my non dominant hand so I can use my dominant hand to do the reload. When it comes to the “I want my techniques to be as broadly applicable as possible” argument, does that mean that I should also switch hands when I reload a semiautomatic? Should I only fire 6 rounds out of my semiautomatic pistols to keep myself in tune with reloads at revolver pacing? Should I not trust the lock back on a magazine if not all my firearms lock back? How problematic is it for my mind/body to apply different techniques for different firearms?

I shoot thumbs forward with semiautomatics and I don’t with revolvers. I don’t somehow forget how to do one or the other by not using one exclusively. By the same token I have sledgehammers and ball peen hammers. I don’t swing both of them with the same force as the sledgehammer and I don’t use both for the same job. I apply the technique/tool that makes the most sense for the job at hand.

Now if someone doesn’t want to use a certain technique that’s completely his/her call and I make no claim to knowing the “best” way to do just about anything. I also accept that my examples could be argued as more extreme than the differences we see in many techniques. I just think the human brain can learn/process more than a lot of people credit for, even under stress (if practiced).

Lastly, just because something was done a certain way in the past doesn’t mean there isn’t another way to do something that’s worth trying. I could use a slide rule rather than a calculator and in some cases the former is very good, but that doesn’t mean if I went back in time and offered up that person a calculator that he/she wouldn’t jump at the opportunity.


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I get what you’re saying, but I also think that there’s a potential trap in this type of logic.

Don't forget the "trap" of taking that logic to extremes.

Let’s take reloading a revolver as an example. When I was taught to reload a revolver, I was taught to transition the revolver to my non dominant hand so I can use my dominant hand to do the reload.

I wasn't taught that. :D

I learned it was better to switch a Single Action to my left hand and reload with my right, and it was better and more practical to keep a swing out DA or top break in my right (shooting) hand and reload it with my left.

I think the idea of using general techniques that will work on about everything has merit. However I do not think that any adaptation is to be avoided. Only that really "fine tuning" your technique to a specific mechanism can result in difficulties when operating a different mechanism.

If you usually drive a standard, does your left foot stomp the floor when you drive an automatic? (or worse stomp the brake "thinking" its the clutch??) Doubt you'll do that, more than once, anyway...:D

Like a lot of things, going too far can be just as bad as not going far enough.
 
Originally posted by TunnelRat
I get what you’re saying, but I also think that there’s a potential trap in this type of logic. Let’s take reloading a revolver as an example. When I was taught to reload a revolver, I was taught to transition the revolver to my non dominant hand so I can use my dominant hand to do the reload. When it comes to the “I want my techniques to be as broadly applicable as possible” argument, does that mean that I should also switch hands when I reload a semiautomatic? Should I only fire 6 rounds out of my semiautomatic pistols to keep myself in tune with reloads at revolver pacing? Should I not trust the lock back on a magazine if not all my firearms lock back? How problematic is it for my mind/body to apply different techniques for different firearms?

Obviously with drastically different platforms like a revolver and semi-auto, certain differences in technique will be necessary. To use your example, I carry my reloads for a semi-auto on my non-dominant side (in my case my left) while I carry revolver reloads on my dominant side (for me, right). This not only serves to place them in the most optimal place for the different reloading techniques, but also serves to remind me in the heat of the moment which technique I need to use.

Originally posted by TunnelRat
I shoot thumbs forward with semiautomatics and I don’t with revolvers. I don’t somehow forget how to do one or the other by not using one exclusively. By the same token I have sledgehammers and ball peen hammers. I don’t swing both of them with the same force as the sledgehammer and I don’t use both for the same job. I apply the technique/tool that makes the most sense for the job at hand.

Now if someone doesn’t want to use a certain technique that’s completely his/her call and I make no claim to knowing the “best” way to do just about anything. I also accept that my examples could be argued as more extreme than the differences we see in many techniques. I just think the human brain can learn/process more than a lot of people credit for, even under stress (if practiced).

Certainly one can adapt to different techniques for different firearms, in many cases it's even necessary depending on how different two given firearms are, but I see no need to further complicate switching from one gun to another with different techniques if I don't have to. To use cars as an example, I have two different vehicles which both have automatic transmissions but one's shifter lever is on the steering column while the other is in the console between the front seats. When I drive one that I haven't driven in a week or two, it's not uncommon to find myself reaching for a shifter lever that isn't there. Now, I consciously know which car I'm in and putting my car in gear isn't exactly a high stress situation, but muscle memory is still taking over.

Fully releasing the trigger, using a crossed-thumbs grip, and sling-shotting the slide are all techniques that work pretty universally even if they might be sub-optimal for certain guns. I just don't see myself getting that much benefit from gun-specific techniques to be worth the trouble if I don't have to. Perhaps you get more benefit from these techniques than I do and if so that's great, but for me it just isn't worth the trouble YMMV.

Originally posted by TunnelRat
Lastly, just because something was done a certain way in the past doesn’t mean there isn’t another way to do something that’s worth trying. I could use a slide rule rather than a calculator and in some cases the former is very good, but that doesn’t mean if I went back in time and offered up that person a calculator that he/she wouldn’t jump at the opportunity.

This really isn't what I'm talking about, a slide-rule and a calculator are very different items and thus the method of using one or the other is very different. I'm talking about using different techniques for identical or very similar items. For example, until the 1960's and 1970's the prevailing way to shoot handguns was some variation of a one-handed stance sometimes called a "dueling stance" or "bullseye stance." Over the years, most of us have found that, outside of certain competitions where one-handed shooting is mandated, we shoot better using two hands. That being said, I've known some older shooters who could shoot better one-handed than I could with two and I'm not about to tell them to change. Their technique works as well as it ever did and their results are still impressive by modern standards so they have little reason to adopt the more "modern" techniques.

I guess the point I'm really trying to make is that, contrary to what some trainers and Youtube personalities might tell you, beyond the basics of safety, reliable operation of the gun, sight alignment, sight picture, and trigger control I really don't think that there's any right or wrong way to shoot a handgun, just what works best for the individual. When I start rolling my eyes is when people like the aforementioned trainers and Youtubers start criticizing guns that they're obviously not familiar with because they've become dogmatic about a particular technique that's tailored to their particular gun of choice.

Originally posted by 44AMP
If you usually drive a standard, does your left foot stomp the floor when you drive an automatic? (or worse stomp the brake "thinking" its the clutch??) Doubt you'll do that, more than once, anyway...

Back when I was a teenager and routinely drove a car with a manual transmission, I did exactly that in my dad's car. My foot caught the far left edge of the brake and I came to a very abrupt tire-squalling stop. Not only was I embarrassed, but I scared the living daylights out of my elderly grandfather who was in the passenger seat :o
 
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Hold on. Hold on. Before we start saying it isn't a thing.

Reset is the mechanical function of the gun resetting to ready to fire (dingus is depressed, block/safety is depressed).

Pretravel is a mechanical part of a trigger releasing the trigger dingus (which is a drop safety only) and the firing pin block from a safe start.

At no point is a striker improved by riding the trigger fully forward. There is no mechanical advantage to it. Additionally, pretravel is something you can change. Look at this adventure of eliminating it totally in a Walther PPQ (https://lanzerbot.wordpress.com/2016/06/20/ppq-adjustable-creep-conversion-guide/).

We can all do our own thing, but it's a thing. The trigger is fully functional at reset, it has no advantage past it. In fact, the pretravel you release to can be part of the trigger system safety at rest. You might NOT actually want fully forward when you know you are continuing rapid fire. Ie, my Gen5 pretravel after reset is substantially long. Pretravel gained you nothing and was a function of safety at rest in your holster.

"Current" reset hype in strikers has existed as a real thing since the Walther P99 in the 1990s which has a lighter trigger and has the same fast reset as the PPQ/PDP since both the PPQ/PDP use the P99 SA sear housing geometry. It's the same reset that all have tried to match since (about every single manufacturer's striker fired gun, including the trigger in the gen5 Glock) and aftermarket promises (apex, etc).
 
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I guess the point I'm really trying to make is that, contrary to what some trainers and Youtube personalities might tell you, beyond the basics of safety, reliable operation of the gun, sight alignment, sight picture, and trigger control I really don't think that there's any right or wrong way to shoot a handgun, just what works best for the individual. When I start rolling my eyes is when people like the aforementioned trainers and Youtubers start criticizing guns that they're obviously not familiar with because they've become dogmatic about a particular technique that's tailored to their particular gun of choice.

I think there’s a difference between saying there’s a right and a wrong way to do a thing and pointing out that there might be more efficient ways to do a thing. You yourself have said that you could see how I might benefit from doing something and if so that’s great, so a reviewer or trainer pointing that out to others doesn’t seem unreasonable to me (and I have had techniques showed to me that did make meaningful differences in my comfort and performance).

Also, while you say there’s no wrong way to shoot a handgun, you added a lot of caveats. If there is no wrong way to shoot a handgun than complaining about the reset on a handgun isn’t necessarily wrong. It is wrong if you allow it to stop the reliable function (one of the caveats you mentioned), but if personal preference is a factor, and I completely agree that it is, then people will point out features they do or don’t like based on that personal preference. If someone doing that exposes a level of ignorance in your opinion I can understand that, but as related to before I also think people tend to take all of this a bit too personally, even when they then say it’s personal preference (I don’t mean you in particular).


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Originally posted by wild cat mccane
Hold on. Hold on. Before we start saying it isn't a thing.

Reset is the mechanical function of the gun resetting to ready to fire (dingus is depressed, block/safety is depressed).

Who ever said that reset "isn't a thing?" Of course reset is "a thing" as it's mechanically necessary for a semi-automatic firearm. The only self-loading firearms I can think of where one could argue that there is no trigger reset would be full-auto.

Originally posted by wild cat mccane
At no point is a striker improved by riding the trigger fully forward. There is no mechanical advantage to it. Additionally, pretravel is something you can change. Look at this adventure of eliminating it totally in a Walther PPQ (https://lanzerbot.wordpress.com/2016...version-guide/).

We can all do our own thing, but it's a thing. The trigger is fully functional at reset, it has no advantage past it. In fact, the pretravel you release to can be part of the trigger system safety at rest. You might NOT want when you know you want to continue firing.

We're not only talking about striker-fired guns. On many hammer-fired double-action handguns (both semi-auto and revolver) the trigger must be allowed to ride completely forward before the sear will re-engage and allow the gun to be fired again. Also, while there may be no mechanical advantage to allowing the trigger to go fully forward on a striker-fired gun, there may be a practical one in that if the particular gun's reset point isn't obvious to the shooter, allowing the trigger to go fully forward between shots ensures that it consistently resets thus avoiding short-strokes.

Originally posted by wild cat mccane
"Current" reset hype as existed as a real thing since the Walther P99 in the 1990s which has a lighter trigger and as fast reset as the PPQ/PDP and all that tried to match since (about every single manufacturer's striker fired gun, including the trigger in the gen5 Glock).

Perhaps that's when the "hype" started, but guns with short, obvious resets date back much further than that. I just checked a few from my own collection against my personal P99AS and found my Beretta 950B, Beretta M1935, S&W 639, S&W 1076, and Walther PP to all have trigger resets that compared favorably to the P99 and those guns range in vintage from the early 90's to the early 50's
 
Perhaps that's when the "hype" started, but guns with short, obvious resets date back much further than that. I just checked a few from my own collection against my personal P99AS and found my Beretta 950B, Beretta M1935, S&W 639, S&W 1076, and Walther PP to all have trigger resets that compared favorably to the P99 and those guns range in vintage from the early 90's to the early 50's

Very much agreed. I have had a few third generation S&Ws, and their resets generally blew me away in that they would put a SIG with a short reset trigger to shame, and these were stock production pistols.


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