bababooey32
New member
Well, I guess we can close up TFL and call it a day! No more discussions allowed.
Shooting through closed doors
- Thread starter bababooey32
- Start date
Evan Thomas
Inactive
Yah...bababooey32 said:
And wouldn't that be a shame. This has actually been pretty useful, IMO -- much discussion of the actual issues, little if any of the usual it's-legal-therefore-it's-a-good-idea stuff...
It's easy to put up extreme cases and then say, "Well, anyone ought to be able to tell the difference," which seems to be what you're doing. But "thinking twice," before the fact, is more or less what's going on here, and it's a useful exercise, for exactly the reason you point out.PT111 said:
If they do gain entry you will be prepared with weapon in hand. Phone connected to 911, makes it easier afterwards IMHO.
Seems to me that most of the younger guys have this wierd "I can handle this" mentality. This way of thinking can and will get them hurt. I only hope they live thru it and learn from it if it does go bad. Getting shot really changes your perspective on things.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Given my previous experience with 911, if there is an intruder in the house, then 911 is the least of my concerns. I have several other things that I need to be doing that rank quite a bit higher that pertain to keeping my family safe than gabbing with some operator and trying to convey the significance of my situation so that they have some officer arrive at my location sooner after the event has culminated.
Prepared for what? Do you think the guy(s) will just stand there in the doorway, lit from behind, while you shoot them? Will the first shot or four or eight do the trick?
Thanks anyway. I'll be putting 8 or 10 shots through the door from behind cover in the master bathroom and then reloading with a 19 round mag. No way I want somebody in my bedroom who's crazy enough to break down the door.
And I don't care how it looks to the cops or the DA. My first priority is to keep me and my wife alive. In D.C. you might get arrested, but you'd be alive. In Florida, not a problem.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
I've already clearly stated that I (my wife actually) would be on the phone to 911. The intruder would have already broken down one door (because I have NO accessible windows), would have to be disregarding the alarm siren and also disregarding repeated, continuous warnings that I am armed and the police are on the way.
I will NOT wait to see what they plan to do when they come through yet another door and I have to count on my gun killing him before he can kill me.
I will NOT subject my wife and children to the trauma of watching their father kill a man and/or seeing their family being attacked in the process.
He can die on the other side of the door, or lay there bleeding or retreat if I miss or the wounds are not severe. He is not my concern.
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Not at all. I think this has been a very good discussion thread but it approaches the 10 second sound bite problem that the media loves and the public wants to have all the problems in the world solved with the one statement. In your OP you brought out the question and answer in your CWP class and was surprised at it. It would take the full 8 hour class to cover that question completely and there have been some very good points brought out. Discussions like this are extrememly useful but we must remember that we can't solve all the world's problems with one Internet thread or a 10 second sound bite.
The question was is it OK to shoot through a closed door and the answer was yes under certain circumstances. I would imagine that the person asking the question was asking about the outside door but as some have pointed out that it could be an interior door and that to me would be much different. The we could move to how about an door to an inside apartment or motel room. Would they be interior or exterior doors probably with no safe room to call 911 from.
We can't base our entire life around 10 second sound bites althought most officials get elected off of them so you see what happens when you pay too much attention to one. Suppose the instructor had answered the question with "Legally yes, but don't do it".
Still hard to imagine you couldn't get a better shot after they got through the door. I'd never shoot through my front door. By the time a got the ladder out and climbed up high enough to be sure a miss wouldn't land in my neighbor's living room across the street, the door would already be broken down. If not, the door caving in while I was climbing the ladder would put me in a literally precarious position.
The hotel shooting reminds me of being in a hotel two years ago when someone banged loudly on the door of my room. I looked through the peephole and could just make out the distorted toe of the shoe on the guy hiding around the corner. Then he stepped out and repeated, so I called the desk to send security up. Then insults started coming through the door. Then security arrived. It turned out to be a hotel regular trying to play a joke on his friend in the next room. If I'd shot him it would have been justified I expect (this was in Texas), in light of all the stories about people attacked in hotels that you hear. But it also would have been bad karma all around. Not to mention a miss going into the room across the hall, which I consider unacceptable.
Cooper's rule 4 stands as unexceptionable, IMHO. Maybe I'll be able to come up with a scenario where it doesn't, but I haven't yet.
The hotel shooting reminds me of being in a hotel two years ago when someone banged loudly on the door of my room. I looked through the peephole and could just make out the distorted toe of the shoe on the guy hiding around the corner. Then he stepped out and repeated, so I called the desk to send security up. Then insults started coming through the door. Then security arrived. It turned out to be a hotel regular trying to play a joke on his friend in the next room. If I'd shot him it would have been justified I expect (this was in Texas), in light of all the stories about people attacked in hotels that you hear. But it also would have been bad karma all around. Not to mention a miss going into the room across the hall, which I consider unacceptable.
Cooper's rule 4 stands as unexceptionable, IMHO. Maybe I'll be able to come up with a scenario where it doesn't, but I haven't yet.
Edward429451
Moderator
Ah, but Cooper also admitted that he violated a rule when dry firing at the tele and explained his reasoning thusly...that I need my tele but I need my skills even more. So even Cooper knows that situational ethics can force ones hand where generally the rules stand.
Rules are a guideline for peacetime. When the balloon is in the air all bets are off and the situation dictates the actions taken. Real life steps in!
Rules are a guideline for peacetime. When the balloon is in the air all bets are off and the situation dictates the actions taken. Real life steps in!
I'm not saying you SHOULD shoot them, but I am saying that once you are certain that they are trying to get in, that they have an excellent chance of doing so and that they know you are there then they are definitely a threat. I'm also saying that a door is probably a better "stopper" than a handgun. Allowing them to enter seriously degrades your "tactical" situation. It's something a person should consider.
My outer doors are far more secure than my inner doors--in fact none of my inner doors would stand up to any sort of assault whatsoever. Maybe that's something I should fix, but currently that's the way it is. The small chance that he might not be dangerous after he gets inside is insufficient motivation for me to let in a person who knows that my house is occupied and is still attempting to violently enter. Not if I can stop him.
It's obviously much better to prevent him from getting into the house in the first place.
I'm not in this to make it a fair fight. I'm in it to keep me and mine from getting hurt. The idea that I should let him in where we can shoot it out "clean" is just plain crazy as far as I'm concerned. If I can stop an obvious threat on the other side of the door it makes less than zero sense to let him in where he has far more ability to do me and mine harm.
If they know you're there (a verbal challenge is called for here) and if you reasonably fear that they will imminently gain entry if you do not shoot through the door then I would say that shooting through the door is a really good idea.
Your over-arching point is correct in the sense that IN GENERAL, shooting someone, PERIOD, is a bad idea. It's only when someone has demonstrated that they are an imminent deadly threat (which they can easily do from the other side of a door) that it suddenly becomes a good idea to shoot them.
I will not shoot unless he has already broken in
HI,
If the person has already broken trough my security door (which is in front of each of my external doors, after jumping over the wall that fences my property,and is now trying to break through my door it is highly unlilely that he is up to anything good.
My planned response to such a scenario is to gather the wife and kid in one room, (both me and the wife always have a firearm at reach), teh wife calls the police, and I shout to whoever is behind the door that police are on their way, and if he does get through the door I will open fire.
if the intruder is holding a weapon and is aiming it into the house
( I can see this from side windows and it takes me one flick of a swtich to illuminate all my yard) I will advise him again to go elsewhere, while covering him with my firearm.
The only time I will fire though a door is when the intruder is already shooting.
To explain my decisions, I need to highlight that our laws here are different than those in the US, which forces me to think ten times before shooting. including the fact that we now have 11 official languages, and if he survives he can claim that he thought I was inviting him as he only speaks the 9 languages which I was not using. ( I am no kidding you)
Therefore, I will hold my fire until he has broken in, but my family and I will be behind cover. ( my house walls are thick enough to stop anything short of a 50 BMG bullet)
Brgds,
Danny
HI,
If the person has already broken trough my security door (which is in front of each of my external doors, after jumping over the wall that fences my property,and is now trying to break through my door it is highly unlilely that he is up to anything good.
My planned response to such a scenario is to gather the wife and kid in one room, (both me and the wife always have a firearm at reach), teh wife calls the police, and I shout to whoever is behind the door that police are on their way, and if he does get through the door I will open fire.
if the intruder is holding a weapon and is aiming it into the house
( I can see this from side windows and it takes me one flick of a swtich to illuminate all my yard) I will advise him again to go elsewhere, while covering him with my firearm.
The only time I will fire though a door is when the intruder is already shooting.
To explain my decisions, I need to highlight that our laws here are different than those in the US, which forces me to think ten times before shooting. including the fact that we now have 11 official languages, and if he survives he can claim that he thought I was inviting him as he only speaks the 9 languages which I was not using. ( I am no kidding you)
Therefore, I will hold my fire until he has broken in, but my family and I will be behind cover. ( my house walls are thick enough to stop anything short of a 50 BMG bullet)
Brgds,
Danny
eclipsetactical
Moderator
In fact
I have met a person who shot through the door after someone was trying to kick it in. He got off scott free because he was in fear for his life and that of his family. So there have been cases already that set precident to just such a situation.
I have met a person who shot through the door after someone was trying to kick it in. He got off scott free because he was in fear for his life and that of his family. So there have been cases already that set precident to just such a situation.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
Dannyl, your plan sounds exactly right -- not only in terms of your laws, but tactically, as well... Although different house layouts, where any kids are, etc., may require other tactics, in general, people in jurisdictions that permit a "more aggressive" response would do well to have plans that are similar to yours.
Where did this happen? It sounds like something that would've made at least the local news... Can you provide us with a link to a news report of this incident?
eclipsetactical said:
Where did this happen? It sounds like something that would've made at least the local news... Can you provide us with a link to a news report of this incident?
Too likely to end like this: http://content.usatoday.com/communities/hotelcheckin/post/2009/07/68495159/1
Don't do it.
pax
Don't do it.
pax
Folks, you are missing one thing here that makes it a moot point.
The BG HAS to come through the door.
In the instant that they are framed in the door, you have a perfect target solution.
Why do you think that in law enforcement it is called the "fatal funnel"? Get caught in the doorway, you're as good as dead.
I still maintain this--never shoot through a wall or a door. Positively ID your target FIRST.
Here, there is an obvious solution that I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet. Here, in this case, the weapon light comes into its own.
I'm not talking about your piddly 60 lumen night light, either. Make your weapon light STRONG.
How to deploy it? You should be barricaded behind something, facing the door. In the instant that the threat presents itself, light it up with the weapon light. A good light will blind and disorient.
This gives you time to challenge or to engage, should the threat continue.
I use, and highly recommend the Fenix line of flashlights. My weapon light, and my carry light is the Fenix TK11. This light is powered by 2xCR123 batteries, and puts out a blinding 240 lumens of pure white light, from a Cree LED.
You should be mentally prepared to illuminate and take your shot IMMEDIATELY if necessary.
Again, identify your target FIRST. Don't shoot through walls, and don't shoot at motion.
The BG HAS to come through the door.
In the instant that they are framed in the door, you have a perfect target solution.
Why do you think that in law enforcement it is called the "fatal funnel"? Get caught in the doorway, you're as good as dead.
I still maintain this--never shoot through a wall or a door. Positively ID your target FIRST.
Here, there is an obvious solution that I'm surprised no one has mentioned yet. Here, in this case, the weapon light comes into its own.
I'm not talking about your piddly 60 lumen night light, either. Make your weapon light STRONG.
How to deploy it? You should be barricaded behind something, facing the door. In the instant that the threat presents itself, light it up with the weapon light. A good light will blind and disorient.
This gives you time to challenge or to engage, should the threat continue.
I use, and highly recommend the Fenix line of flashlights. My weapon light, and my carry light is the Fenix TK11. This light is powered by 2xCR123 batteries, and puts out a blinding 240 lumens of pure white light, from a Cree LED.
You should be mentally prepared to illuminate and take your shot IMMEDIATELY if necessary.
Again, identify your target FIRST. Don't shoot through walls, and don't shoot at motion.
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
It's pretty well obvious to everybody that we don't shoot unidentified targets making movement or noise behind a wall or door.
There are obvious exceptions to the prohibition on shooting a target that you cannot see. Read my previous post #66 for one example of why I not only WOULD shoot through a closed door but would personally consider it foolish not to.
FireForged
New member
In my mind there is a huge difference in someone beating on a exterior door and someone who is already inside my home, beating on a locked interior door (ie bedroom).
If a person is outside my home and there is a intact barrier(door) between me and the bad-guy. Speaking for myself... I wouldnt feel that enough jeopardy exists for me to fire.
If a person is outside my home and there is a intact barrier(door) between me and the bad-guy. Speaking for myself... I wouldnt feel that enough jeopardy exists for me to fire.
Double Naught Spy
New member
Well heck, if you don't have the disco strobe feature, you really can't expect any disorientation! My Olight Warrior M20 Premium at 230 lumens has the disco strobe feature from its Cree LED of pure white light. Strobing is where it is at nowadays, only as near as I can tell, strobing from a single source doesn't do squat for disorienting anymore than a single bright light.
I think you have bought in too much to the Surefire lights ads where they proclaim the light to be a weapon unto itself.
That is a story of a person who shot through his door because he heard someone trying to put a key in the lock. No verbal warning, no violent entry attempt.
I would definitely say that a person shouldn't shoot through a door unless they have verbally warned the attempted intruder and unless they feel that the entry is imminent and that it poses a deadly threat.
Here are some:
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/story?id=3623085&page=1
Police have said they have no plans to file charges against Logg.
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/2008_10_01_archive.html
The homeowner then fired a shot through the door with a 12-gauge shotgun, striking Stanley in the stomach. ... The homeowner has not been charged...
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/MS.html
In a Nov. 27 shooting, Jackson homeowner Cedric Marshall wasn't indicted in the death of Marcus D. Rawls, 23, also of Jackson....Published reports said Marshall thought two men were trying to break into his home and shot through the door to scare away the intruders.
Here are some cases where the homeowner was shot through the door. Who thinks it would be reasonable to return fire?
http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2009/05/19/news/doc4a128aea58098610536119.txt
http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/3103496/
No, you're missing the point that the door is a significant tactical advantage because it separates you from someone trying to do you harm. With the door gone there is nothing preventing the criminal from harming you but you and your ability with your firearm. Allowing a criminal to break down your door severely degrades your tactical situation by giving them access to you and anyone else inside.
YES, once the door is gone, you can see to get a clear shot. Unfortunately so can the criminal.
If the door is holding up then I agree. Once it's clear that the door will not hold much longer then the situation is completely different.
Again, I want to stress that it's absolutely inadvisable, illegal, and immoral to simply shoot through the door at noises and I am NOT saying that anyone should do such a thing. What I'm addressing is the idea that it's never a good idea to shoot through a door. In very specific circumstances it makes a lot of sense to shoot through a door because it gives the defender a good chance of stopping a criminal after the criminal has demonstrated violent intent/ability/motivation but just before the criminal has a good chance of injuring the defender.
The specific circumstances are:
- Criminal has been clearly warned away verbally.
- Criminal is clearly making a concerted effort to illegally enter the residence.
- It is clear that the criminal will imminently (NOT eventually) gain entrance if nothing is done.
- This set of circumstances is legal grounds for the use of deadly force in the defender's locale.
Evan Thomas
Inactive
JohnKSa... Thanks for the links. Actually, I was aware of at least one of those precedents, and some others -- but I was hoping eclipsetactical might back up his "I know someone" example with some documentation... still hoping. 