Shooting through closed doors

peetzakilla said:
Shooting through an inner door is a whole different animal.
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It's a somewhat different animal. It's easier to justify shooting someone who's already broken in.

But it has many of the same problems regarding missing what you're (not) aiming at, and where rounds go after that... As Hogdogs likes to point out (credit where it's due, here :)), the best way to avoid overpenetration and the risks that go with it is to hit your target, and shooting blind isn't the best way to do that.
 
LE friends have always told me that BG should fall inside the house if you have to shoot.
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Your law enforcement friends are either ignorant of the law or are oversimplifying the law to the point of error.

In Texas, Louisiana, or Arkansas it does not matter where they fall as long as you feared for your life and therefore you responded in an effort to stop the threat with lethal force.
 
But it has many of the same problems regarding missing what you're (not) aiming at, and where rounds go after that... As Hogdogs likes to point out (credit where it's due, here ), the best way to avoid overpenetration and the risks that go with it is to hit your target, and shooting blind isn't the best way to do that.
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That's true, but take my house as an example. The only inner door that I'd be shooting through is my bedroom door. The only thing on the other side of that door is 75 feet of building, at least 4 walls made of tongue-in-groove 3/4 inch boards (on BOTH sides) and likely (angle dependent) at least one layer of steel roofing. No bullet (that I'd be shooting) will make it out of that building. On top of that, if you are in the bedroom looking at the door, the BG can not be to the right side because there is a closet/end of hallway there. That means that they are either directly in front of the door or off to the left. If they're beating/kicking on the door then it's pretty fair to believe that they're more or less in front of the door, probably slightly off-center to the left.

I would have no qualms about shooting through the door if I had already met all the prerequisites and had reason to believe that my safety would be significantly imperiled if I waited for the door to give way.
 
I would have no qualms about shooting through the door if I had already met all the prerequisites and had reason to believe that my safety would be significantly imperiled if I waited for the door to give way.
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Neither would I, if I lived in that house. :)
 
On top of that, if you are in the bedroom looking at the door, the BG can not be to the right side because there is a closet/end of hallway there. That means that they are either directly in front of the door or off to the left. If they're beating/kicking on the door then it's pretty fair to believe that they're more or less in front of the door, probably slightly off-center to the left.
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So, the questions become, where at the door do you shoot, from what location (defined in 3D space), and what part of the perp's body, if any, may happen to be in line with each shot at the time of firing....

That would be a good one for someone with some good CAD software to simulate.

Just trying to visualize it, it seems to me it would really be a hit-or-miss situation. Pardon the pun.

Oops, one more question: after shooting, how would one know whether the threat had been hit and wounded or neutralized, or had retreated to wait for your egress?
 
So, the questions become, where at the door do you shoot, from what location (defined in 3D space), and what part of the perp's body, if any, may happen to be in line with each shot at the time of firing....

That would be a good one for someone with some good CAD software to simulate.

Just trying to visualize it, it seems to me it would really be a hit-or-miss situation. Pardon the pun.

Oops, one more question: after shooting, how would one know whether the threat had been hit and wounded or neutralized, or had retreated to wait for your egress?
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If I have come to the point that I am shooting through a door then I don't care where the guy gets hit.
After the shooting, I don't care what he does. I'm waiting for the police. My wife would be on the phone with 911 at the time of the shooting and they would be apprised as to the current situation.
 
DNS...
don't know why you think they would necessarily cover tactics in this situation.
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Never said that or even alluded to such a sentiment.

Wow...chill out dude. I really suggest you back off your high horse and enter a civil discussion with the rest of us.

Besides, the question was fairly straight forward and the instructor gave a straight forward answer. The person making the query wasn't asking about safety or tactics, but the legal aspect.
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Sorry, didn't see you in the room there on Saturday. Can you tell me whatthe question was then? I forgot...what? What's that? You WEREN'T there?? Strange, sure sounded like it from your factual statement about what the question was. As I've stated TWICE now, the question was a hypothetical scenario (of which we evaluated several that day) about shooting through a closed door. As I have also stated TWICE (at least), the instructor said it was justifiable if reasonably fearful of life or limb. I have stated TWICE that I agree with that assesment, but thought it strange that the instructor did not go on to say "but it's proabably a bad idea". The instructor HAD infact engaged in brief discussions of tactics as asides to the class (e.g. "You may be justified, but it's not a great idea").

SO, my friend, you have become worked up over a disagreement which barely exists! Relax!

Whether or not it is unsafe or bad tactics is a matter of opinion and that is going to vary with situation.
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Ahhh! There! You've caught up to the rest of us. My question was precisely that: What is your opinion?

I don't know what this "perhaps" garbage is.
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Again...relax, turbo! The argument is made often that even in a justified shoot, certain things might be used against you and "painted" a certain way by a zealous DA: Handloads, suppressors, ARs, etc. Shooting through objects at people "MIGHT" be seen as reckless and could be used to further paint a picture of you that is unsympathetic. I said "perhaps" because a) I'm not sure I buy it and b) "perhaps" there won't be an overzealous DA!

Okay got it. The CHL instructor was asked a simple legal question to which he gave the simple legal answer, only that answer did not include caveats that YOU think are important and so should have been covered by the instructor and so you are complaining about it?
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Yup. Did you just copy and paste my OP?

Do you have any idea how much longer CHL classes would last if CHL instructors answer all possible ramifications of simple legal questions?
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I don't know. You sure seem to know alot, why don't you fill us in? :rolleyes:

Of course, if you think that is how it should be handled, then become a CHL instructor.
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I doubt I qualilfy...That's why I come here and ask questions and solicit opinions.
 
If he is outside he is no threat. After he gains entry he becomes a threat.
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The castle laws in some states permit the use of deadly force to stop an attempt at unlawful entry, but in some others, deadly force may not be used unless the invader has actually entered the occupied domicile.

Notwithstanding the wording, consider the case of a perp outside an occupied domicile trying to set it on fire. Would you shoot? I would.

That's specifically called out in the law in some states and not in others. Does anyone have reason to believe it would be unlawful to do so in any state not requiring retreat from the domicile?

Pardon the slight veer, but this is relevant to the above comment, I think.

Would it be lawful to shoot through the door? Through the screen, maybe!
 
Last week in eastern Washington my son's collage professor had returned to his unfamiliar hotel late from a school conference. Got on the wrong floor and was trying to figure out why his key did not work on "his" door when the occupant fired a .45 through door, hitting him in the chest, killing him.

No clear target, no legal threat in view, NO SHOOT
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He was not on the wrong floor, just the wrong door trying the key. It wasn't a 45, it was a 40. He attended a birthday party not a school conference. BG is in a world of hurt.
 
Shoot thru the door? I myself would not, it puts holes in the door.

Someone kicking in the door? Use WildAlaskas method, retreat to a safe room arm yourself dial 911. Why would you do anything different?
 
Why can we throw rule #4 out the door in this situation? I wouldn't advise shooting a silouhette in the dark either (even though you may be justified in doing so). That's why carrying a weapon-mounted light or handheld tactical light is thought of as a "must" for home defense!!
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You're not throwing out rule #4, but you ARE identifying a person as a threat justifying deadly force without seeing them in both cases because that's how the law (in my state and others) is written.

I'm home alone at the moment, my wife is in another state. If I wake up in the middle of the night to a loud noise and the security system alarm to find an intruder in my bedroom I don't have to see him to know he doesn't belong there and to know that under TX law I'm justified in using deadly force against him if I feel there is no other option.

Similarly, the fact that a person is trying to break down a door to enter an occupied residence, BY LAW (in my state and others) identifies him as a threat even if the resident can't see the person in question.

Ok, let's take this one step further. We have had at least one TFL member who was totally blind. Are y'all saying that a blind person can not use a firearm in self defense due to the limitation of rule 4?
 
John - You are also missing entirely the point of my post. As stated several times already, the legality of the shoot is not in question. Fire away!

However, saying you are justified in shooting someone is not the same as saying you SHOULD be shooting them.

What if your wife came home early?

What if your neighbor stumbled in drunk?


You COULD shoot them, but do you want to? (you may choose not to answer regarding your wife ;))

There are a million what-if's - each of them solved by POSITIVELY identifying your target rather than identifying them through some process of elimination.

I am not saying there are also not several plausible scenarios where shooting through a door makes perfect sense. My over-arching point is that IN GENERAL, shooting through a door is a bad idea.

As for a blind shooter, unfortunately he has a higher burden than the rest of us. Certainly he doesn't have carte-blanche to fire away because of his blindness? If we asked him/her, my guess is that they would be even more cautious in ensuring any target was a true threat (by whatever means possible) before fireing. For a sighted person, the easiest way to positively identify your target is using your eyes. I cannot speak for the blind on what their tactics should be in a SD situation.
 
However, saying you are justified in shooting someone is not the same as saying you SHOULD be shooting them.

What if your wife came home early?

What if your neighbor stumbled in drunk?
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Which is entirely different than shooting someone who is attempting to break down your door.

You wife is unlikely to be attempting to smash her way into her own house or bedroom.

Your neighbor, being sufficiently drunk, MIGHT be banging away at your OUTER door, but your bedroom?


I am not saying there are also not several plausible scenarios where shooting through a door makes perfect sense. My over-arching point is that IN GENERAL, shooting through a door is a bad idea.
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That's the same general idea of almost everyone else in this thread also.
 
Bababooey has made the point regarding the risk, as have those who have related accounts of tragedies that have resulted from such shooting.

Earlier, I pointed out a question about the effectiveness--what are the chances that you would stop the assailant?

Some time earlier this year, I read a post about a man who fired a shotgun through his bedroom door at someone trying to get in. As I recall, it was effective: it stopped the threat. The man who was not hit took the man who was nicked in the shoulder for medical treatment, and they were arrested.

If it were necessary and the risks were contained I guess I might shoot through a door, but frankly, I cannot really visualize when it would be necessary.

Door with glass window, paricularly a broken window? Different story, maybe.
 
Your neighbor, being sufficiently drunk, MIGHT be banging away at your OUTER door, but your bedroom?
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And if he/she is drunk enough to be forcing the front door or to have forced his way inside and be working on the bedroom door, isn't the threat still real and fully demonstrated? Drunkenness is not a license for assault or forcible entry or, as near as I know, any other illegal act, and there are plenty of neighborhoods where neighbor is not a synonym for friend anymore. I don't want to plug a buddy of mine, but if he is threatening my family, drunk or sober, he is not my buddy any more. If you do stupid things when you get drunk, quit drinking. AA has helped a lot of people.

I'm with you, pizzaman.

To get back on topic, however briefly, it would require special circumstances for me to fire through a closed door, because of the issues of target identification and risk to other people in the vicinity that have already been discussed. Not saying its impossible, but it would have to be at the coincidence of several unusual circumstances for me personally to feel I done the right thing.
 
John - You are also missing entirely the point of my post. As stated several times already, the legality of the shoot is not in question. Fire away!

However, saying you are justified in shooting someone is not the same as saying you SHOULD be shooting them.
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The "should" aspect is going to depend on the situation and whether or not you are in fear for your life. John's wife isn't going to come home early and be trying to break down the door of her own home.

If John's neighbor is drunk, but sufficiently functioning to be breaking down John's door, then John probably should be in fear for his life. The neighbor isn't there with a pizza to share with John or to ask for a hug. As with the New Bohemians musician, a perfectly nice person chemically out of their mind can be a true and credible threat.

It might be unfortunate to shoot your neighbor, but necessary.
 
It seems this thread like so many others on gun forums or other forums (sports in particular) has gotten blown all out of proportions. I don't really see anyone questioning the legality of shooting through the door in some very specific cases and don't see anyone saying that you should never do it. What I do see is a lot of people saying that if you do you better be sure of what you are doing and don't go shooting through the door when the pizza man delivers even if you haven't ordered a pizza. There is a big difference between someone knocking on your door and someone trying to break it down and if you can't tell the difference get rid of your guns. If you are on trial for shooting a 4 year old boy that you claim was trying to break down your door you better not put me on the jury.

However if you shoot two escaped convicts that were doing it then more power to you but you better know the difference or wait until they are inside so you can see. We can come up with 10,000 scenarios and 500 actual cases but none are going to matter when you are on trial. Quit the nitpicking and arguing and use some common sense. It's like the question that keeps getting asked about when it is OK to shoot someone. Only you will know when it happens and if you aren't sure then you better think twice as it will be a life changing experience for you either way.
 
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