Shooting +P+

My comments about the marketing motives of those who sell +P+ ammo wasn't just me being snarky... Over the years I've looked at published performance results and never been all that impressed with +P or +P+ performance. Then, too, a lot of folks don't shoot +P or +P+ as well as they do standard loads.

I did a quick web search this afternoon and found the following information, which is a reasonably good sample of standard and +P ammo performance. Unhappily, only one +P+ load is shown. It's not a complete list, but it has a lot of the more popular self-defense loads. The site itself is impressive. I only focused on 9mm performance for the following chrt.

https://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/pistol-ammo-9mm

I converted all of the stuff from the 9mm part of the sites data into a large spreadsheet, and then compared the results.

The following chart is just a segment of the larger spreadsheet, but it lets you easily see what rounds perform in similar manners. A surprising number of standard rounds perform ALMOST as well as +P, and a few do better than +P rounds. A few standard and +P rounds are close to +P+ performance in every respect except penetration (and it might be argued that some +P+ load grossly over-penetrate, which can be a problem.)

This and my earlier reviews have caused me to think that both +P and +P+ may be much ado about not as much as most people think.

9mm%20ballistics%202_zpsfzowjbi4.jpg


Another site worth investigating is LUCKY GUNNER which has a full range of ballistic results for a lot of different calibers, too. It's an interesting site to explore.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm
 
HighValleyRanch said:
Thanks for that chart, Walt. Does it state what gun was used for testing and barrel length?
Click to expand...

You'll find the details in the link, if you scroll down to the information right before the site shows individual round specs and performance.
  • S&W M&P Shield with 3.1" barrel. Target set at 10 feet.
Obviously not a "hunting" setup, but a surprising number of self-defense weapons come with barrels in the 3"-4" range. These results are arguably appropriate for many self-defense scenarios. We'd see better results for longer-barreled guns, of course.

I'd like to see more information about +P+ rounds, but haven't found much that was credible (or not obviously biased).

I was particularly surprised with how well some standard velocity rounds did in this particular comparison.

Another interesting site and data set can be found at the SPEER site, which offers the following. Their data compares results for different calibers against different types bullet types and their effectiveness against different barriers. It helps us understand how bullet types can affect performance through different media (cloth, leather, wallboard, 2"x4"s, etc.:

https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Speer-Gold-Dot-Ammunition-Comparison.jpg

The main conclusion I've gotten from all of this (and not just the data shown above), is that a FASTER or HEAVIER BULLET doesn't necessarily mean BETTER RESULTS, and while some hotter (faster or heavier) rounds ARE apparently more effective, some standard self-defense rounds perform VERY WELL, indeed, and are not hard on the gun or the shooter.

Another observation: at one time there was much discussion about ENERGY TRANSFER, suggesting that a larger bullet hitting a body at a good rate will do more damage than smaller rounds traveling at the same or faster rates.

A lot of study has been done in this area, over the past 10+ years and apparently what's MOST IMPORTANT is enough bullet penetration to hit a critical part of the body (preferably the central nervous system). A main structureal bone mass, like the pelvis can be debilitating, as can a lung or heart shot, but the bad guy (or gal) can still get YOU before he or she is ready to give up.
  • The dibilitating effect of secondary/temporary wound cavities appears to be limited -- as too many bad guys (or gals) continue their attacks despite multiple hits in a lot of seemingly critical places. The shooter may bleed out a bit faster, but while he (or she) is bleeding out, he or she may be killing you.
A quick stop is what is critical, and a FASTER, LARGER BULLET fired at most handgun velocities won't stop anyone faster unless it hits the right spot.

Once bullet velocity climbs over 2000 fps secondary wound cavaties DO make a big difference -- and that's why military weapons are so devastating. Even when these fast rounds don't kill the target, they can knock the target out of action and cause someone to come to their aid.
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If someone thinks the differences are worth it to him or her that's his or her call. I've carried standard and +P, now mostly carrying standard. I'm not sure it's all "ego". In fact the people that have discussed using it here seem less concerned about egos than others.

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TunnelRat said:
If someone thinks the differences are worth it to him or her that's his or her call. I've carried standard and +P, now mostly carrying standard. I'm not sure it's all "ego". In fact the people that have discussed using it here seem less concerned about egos than others.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it's ALL "ego" either, but I do think that marketers don't always appeal to the best parts of our conscious or unconscious minds. My use of the term EGO may have been unfortunate, but I think the idea behind my use/misuse of that term is still generally valid. But in hindsight, I think it would have been more effective if I had said things a bit differently, in a way less likely to rile folks because I didn't fully explain my reasoning. My apologies for that.

While I'm now retired, I spent most of the final two decades (of four all working for a single major financial corporation) in product development, marketing and market research. While that sort of marketing is not the same for financial services as when marketing guns or cars, some of the basic techniques are the same. Identifying (or creating) "need" is a marketing focus and you can see this in both car and gun advertising.

When car makers try to sell performance cars they know that many drivers just want a car with MORE HORSEPOWER (or the potential to put "more" power to the road) -- and many buyers think that a car with more horsepower will perform in a more-effective way.

With cars, where (and how) the car is used, which tires are mounted, what sort of suspension tweaks have been performed, whether the computer has been tweaked, and the competence of the driver are factors that really determines how well the car performs.

We seldom see hot ammo compared. While you can see ballistic gel tests, the testing seldom goes beyond that, and ACCURACY is almost never addressed. If you can't HIT what you're aiming at, the ammo may not be effective! We're all, to use a marketing concept, being asked to "buy the sizzle and forget about the steak." In other words, the idea being marketed is sometimes more powerful than the reality.
 
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Right and I don't disagree with some of your points either. I see at as less of accuracy and more shot recovery and it applies to not just +P ammo. You can have the hottest 357 magnum load in the world but if you can't handle it well that's a point and maybe you're better off loading it light. There is no doubt an element of marketing to everything. My point was some people do reach different conclusions and not always just to be the biggest and baddest.

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I have no fascination over "+++P++++" ammo. I belong to a gun club with 2000+ members, and it just AMAZES me how so many guys get an erection over hot ammo. Doesn't matter pistol or rifle. I hear the same stupid comments over and over: "Man my gun loves this stuff, it's really hot, nobody shoots these loads but me". Good for you, at least you have a small amount of common sense. I have only only one firearm that demands hot loads and that's my Uzi 9mm pistol it's my most fussy firearm with ammo and needs a stout 124gr bullet load to reliably cycle the Uzi's heavy bolt. Not running hot loads because i'm a bragger , but running a hot load because I have to. My competition AR15 Service Rifle also needs a very stout load when I shoot my 80 gr SMK's at 600 yds. Just can't get the barrel to shoot except for a stout load. I take extra special care observing the brass when loading/shooting this particular load.
 
I think magnumitis is a youthful folly. We've all been there. I remember laughing with glee when blowing up cinder blocks with really hot 180gr. 44mag handloads in my Super Blackhawk.
Then I shot a friends .30 Weatherby Magnum, began to really appreciate my 06. :rolleyes:
Now with old age creeping up on me the 06 hurts after about 20 rounds so I really appreciate the AR15 I bought. :(
Funny thing is recoil never bothers me when hunting, just when taking practice and shooting extended amount of ammo. Especially notice this when shooting trap or skeet. Gone are the 300 round sessions. Now a 100 rounds is enough.:D
 
For those who are comfortable pushing the limits a bit, plus ratings are fine. I've shot and carried a bunch of them. I have found that I generally shoot standard defense ammo better, i.e. faster and more accurately on follow up shots. The standard Hornady 9mm 124 gr XTP Custom is my go to round at this time. It works well for me.
 
After reading all the post I bought a box of Speer Gold dot 115 gr +p+ hollow point.
1300 fps. I could tell the difference when I pulled the trigger, felt like I was shooting a 357 mag. It was fun and I am sure I'll shoot some more in my remaining years. I figure the kids can replace the worn parts when I'm gone.
 
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