I don't understand the need for +P and +P+ ammo. Why do you need more than the normal loads? I don't know of any reason to have hotter loads than normal and I don't understand why people pay more money and risk excessive wear and tear or damage to their firearms. We have more risk with over penetration than we do with under penetration. In America, we tend to think more power is better but is it really? People buy and drive a 700+ HP Hellcat to brag about but they do the same thing with it that I do with my 200 HP car.
Shooting +P+
- Thread starter Stargater53
- Start date
Shoot it here and there. It’ll be fine. Were it dangerous, ammo manufacturers wouldn’t make it. We had a discussion a while back on buffalo bore ammo, and there was some hyperventilation by some that BB exceeds SAAMI specs in some cases. My argument is “so what?” There is no law forcing compliance with SAAMI specs. SAAMI obviously serves the greater good by working to ensure that ammo is made to a standard and is safe. That being said, SAAMI is the “big tent” that doesn’t fit every application. Their standards are exceeded daily, by 10s of thousands of knowledgeable reloaders, who know what application they are making ammo for and make ammo accordingly (and safely). Should I never exceed SAAMI spec, I would be stuck at 37k psi max for my 8mm Mauser ammo in a ww2 era Mauser. Mind you these mausers were frequently sporterized and chambered in 30-06 or 270, with a much higher pressure, to no ill effect. Why does SAAMI limit me? For rifles from the late 1800s, few of which are still in circulation, that couldn’t handle typical rifle pressures. That doesn’t apply well to my situation. Take 45 colt ammo in a Ruger revolver. Safe to exceed SAAMI max. 38 special in any modern revolver. Again safe for +p and likely beyond. That same 9mm standard ammo has to be safe in a keltec pf9, in addition to the S&W 5906 (quite a robust firearm)... despite the 5906 being able to withstand hotter ammo than the keltec. +P+ in a sufficient firearm is safe.
For your pt92, others have hit on the locking block issue. There are still locking block failures to this day and beretta is on their 3rd redesign of the part. I would not feed the pt92 much +P+ ammo.
For your pt92, others have hit on the locking block issue. There are still locking block failures to this day and beretta is on their 3rd redesign of the part. I would not feed the pt92 much +P+ ammo.
Stargater53
New member
Yes, I m meant to say steel frames. Sorry!
Stargater53
New member
Thanks. Makes sense. I once thought the Beretta lock-up was extremely solid. Then slides began popping off the frames. (I worked at the Naval Sea Systems Commandb in a Arlington, Va., at the time and had a long talk with the guy in charge of the Navy's testing of the Berettas. I learned the following:
1. There were no known slide separation issues with the Italian or commercial Berettas;
2. A slide separation could occur any time after 6,000 rounds;
3. There were no warnings of when such separations would occur;
4. In all test guns, electron-microscopic stress-cracks were searched for, yet none were ever found, making them impossible to predict;
5. Beretta's suggested fix (at that time) was to install something that would keep the slide from separating from the frame --- not something that would keep the break from happening;
6. Finally, Taurus claimed its "Beretta clone" guns used superior metallurgy, but this wasn't substantiated. (Taurus claimed it's never had a reported slide separation.)
He added that the shooters who experienced slide separations could never be used for further testing. I don't know what happened after that and whether Beretta fixed the problem or just added that stop-gap. I only met the man because he was retiring and he had to sign out in my office. I was eating lunch and reading a gun magazine, which he noticed. He was quite put out with the Navy and I was happy to let him vent.
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silvermane_1
New member
OP, shooting +P+ in any of your firearms is "at your own risk" proposition, YMMV.
I did just the opposite.
I went from 357SIG back to 9mm, when I realized the +P+ 9mm, was very similar to 357SIG in performance, and I could practice and shoot a LOT more for my money, with 9mm, especially when the 357SIG ammo prices spiked back during the Obama ammo scare.
9mm is a lot more versatile in that I can shoot standard loads in practice and take advantage of the extra punch and performance of the +P+ in my carry guns.
Just on the M9 and slide separation. It has not been an issue since it was resolved in 1989. But like many things in the gun world the stories linger on and grow and grow till a small monkey becomes King Kong.
The issue first came up in 1987 during testing by the Navy. 3 SEALS suffered facial cuts and one a broken tooth.
It was determined that the issue was poor metallurgy at the point that the slide interfaced with the locking block in some M9s. The metal was improved on and the frame design changed so that even if cracked the slide could not come off.
To read more on this, the true story, click here:
http://sightm1911.com/lib/history/true_story_m9.htm
If you want to focus on just the problem and solutions skip to "The Problems Arise".
tipoc
The issue first came up in 1987 during testing by the Navy. 3 SEALS suffered facial cuts and one a broken tooth.
It was determined that the issue was poor metallurgy at the point that the slide interfaced with the locking block in some M9s. The metal was improved on and the frame design changed so that even if cracked the slide could not come off.
To read more on this, the true story, click here:
http://sightm1911.com/lib/history/true_story_m9.htm
If you want to focus on just the problem and solutions skip to "The Problems Arise".
tipoc
Generally speaking, I tend to agree with the philosophy of buying the gun you want as opposed to trying to make a gun into something its not.
That's not to say I have a problem with using the 9mm for self-defense--just that people who think that standard pressure 9mm isn't enough might be better served getting the caliber they want instead of trying to stretch the 9mm.
That said, 9mm +P (not +P+) is not really much of a stretch for a full-sized pistol of decent quality. Which means, if you think about it, that it's not also probably not buying you much in terms of terminal effect.
Another aspect of this issue is that as a bullseye competitor pistol cartridges with a short powder column tend to be less accurate as the powder gets compressed. First noticed this in 10mm vs. 40S&W. Proved it to myself when acquiring a 38 Super. Select the right tool for the job and you can't go wrong.
Could you please explain this? And give some examples? Thanks.
stagpanther
New member
The problem isn't the firearm--the problem is the case--it's just not built to take pressures much past SAAMI spec. Even the +P and mixed metal ones--I've managed to blow them all apart rather easily. Oh, and the right 9mm projectile can be VERY accurate at 2000 or more fps in my experience.
I was reading this thread the other day and decided I needed to try some +p+. Found box of Magtech 115gr +p+ hollow point. It felt like I was shooting a 357 magnum.
I used the round in a first gen Glock 19 and a first gen M&P 9. It shot to POI and poked hole in paper without a problem. I am saving the rest of the ammo until I go to the desert again and can shoot it some reactive targets. Jugs of water, watermelons and other fun stuff. I don't believe I am going to buy another box of +p+ anything but it was fun.
I used the round in a first gen Glock 19 and a first gen M&P 9. It shot to POI and poked hole in paper without a problem. I am saving the rest of the ammo until I go to the desert again and can shoot it some reactive targets. Jugs of water, watermelons and other fun stuff. I don't believe I am going to buy another box of +p+ anything but it was fun.
Jim Watson
New member
Beretta locking block is a wear part.
E. Langdon replaces his every 20,000 and that with mild commercial ammo and fresh recoil springs every 5000.
One gunzine writer liked the Taurus with Beretta locking block. But then he liked the Radom, too.
E. Langdon replaces his every 20,000 and that with mild commercial ammo and fresh recoil springs every 5000.
One gunzine writer liked the Taurus with Beretta locking block. But then he liked the Radom, too.
While Beretta has improved the locking block design over the years to increase longevity they don't consider it to be a problem in the conventional sense (they consider it a normal wear item) and also, therefore, have never claimed to have resolved it.
Beretta sells new locking blocks for about $30 and a kit that includes a locking block and a new recoil spring for about $35.
I haven't ever been able to find an official recommended replacement interval, but various claims for replacement intervals range from 5K to 20K with some folks claiming well over 100K rounds on a single block and some claiming repeated breakage under 5K rounds.
I don't know that I'll ever get enough ammo through a Beretta to consider replacing the locking block preventively. Besides, it's easy to do a quick check on the block when you do a normal field-strip & clean. If you see cracks developing at the juncture between the "wings" of the block and the body of it, it's time to replace it.