Shoot'em in the groin?

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Gopher covered the topic well. Going to the groin first only makes complete sense to me if that's the only way to have a reliable backstop (as mussi also observed) and the BG has a contact weapon (as TBeck also observed).

The instructor's theory that the groin is the first thing covered during the presentation holds no water with me. In my experience, most instructors now have you get the gun horizontal ASAP, and push it straight out to the target.

OTOH, if I could be guaranteed that my first shot would always be a groin hit 1.25 seconds after the go signal, I'd probably take it. But it's not what I'm going to be trying to accomplish.

TB., NC
 
With absolutely NO respect to this guy, he's an idiot. :rolleyes:

It's not much more ridiculous than the old argument I once heard that you should shoot someone in the hands or arms. That way you don't have to run the risk of killing the person, but you disable them so they can't hurt you.

Yeah. Right.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
Curuzer,
Let me guess...Did you take your class at Texas Shooters Range out by Witte road in Spring Branch?
The guy teaching the CHL up there was preaching the same thing.
Stick to proven techniques, and when possible, aim at COM.

Cowboy
 
Gopher summed it up pretty well. But mostly I have to agree with Mr. Blonde. If I'm a BG, and you shoot me in the groin you had better hope that I die. :)
 
Fud mentioned the possible bonus of stopping a person by breaking their hip or pelvis. What does this mean? I really think this is a form of folklore in regard to handgun use.

A broken hip is actually where the neck of the femur is broken between the head of the femur and the main shaft. You hear about old folks falling and breaking their hips...but actually it is that their hip broke and they fell, the breakage caused by osteoporosis in most cases. So if you get a geriatric villian after you, a hip shot might work, but that femoral neck is a VERY small target.

What about breaking the pelvis? The small bones at the front of the pelvis will be the pubis (more up and front) and ischium (low and connects with the pubis). The left and right pubis join together in the front in an area about 2-4" tall and about 1-2 inches wide. This is not a big target either.

Okay, so we all want to shoot to break the pevlis or hip? How will we do it? Keep in mind that simply shooting a hole through the pelvis won't do it. The pelvis will have to break such that it will collapse under the weight of the person. Rifles work very well for this, say 30.06 would be great, but it fails to qualify as a concealed handgun. Pistols don't carry much power by comparison. While it is a novel idea to "break the pelvis," I have yet to see a report where the bad person was stopped because of a broken pelvis via a handgun shot. Maybe I missed something in the literature and if so, I would like to see what I missed.

So, if someone does come after you with a lead pipe or knife and you think that the person needs to be shot in the hip or pelvis, think twice. Actually, think twice now and have a decision made before the event occurs. Chances are that a pelvis shot will be no more successful in stopping mobility than a chest shot if you are defending yourself with a typical concealed handgun.

Either get out your encyclopedia or do a search on line and take a long hard look at what a human pelvis looks like in an articulated skeleton, and then compare that with the image of a person covered in muscle and skin. Do you really think your chances of stopping someone with a pelvis shot are better than a chest shot?

I agree with previous posters that COM is the way to and the pelvis is a last ditch torso shot. If you are that good of a shot under stress and don't want to kill the person, the the way to preclude mobility is a knee shot. If you strike the patella (knee cap), the bad person's best mobility will be in circles. Note, however, I would never try this.

A groin shot sounds terribly painful and all, but it is not what you want to count on to save your life as the primary target.
 
As before ---- aim at the center of the largest visible area. Apply bullets. Reload if needed.

If that's the groin, so be it. Or the hand. Or whatever.
Follow above rules.

Of course, I wonder what the threat is if only the groin is visible...

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"
 
Instructor was a gal right? :p

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God, Guns and Guts made this country a great country!

oberkommando sez:
"We lost the first and third and now they are after the Second!(no pun intended)"
 
My old shooting and reloading partner in
Tenn., just went through his ccw yesterday with his sister. In our conversation about it today, he said the instructer they had, an leo in tenn., told them the same thing with qualifiers, ...if the opponent is close, shoot into the groin/leg area twice and move out of the way and reengage. I got the impression he was talking about as soon as the pistol cleared the holster, speedrock to the hip, and positioning the slide canted from the body. then shoot twice and move or out of the aggressors line of fire to rengage, ....Im curious now, Ill take sometime at the range and see what I think are the pros and cons for me.....fubsy.
 
Fusby, Good for you! Go for the empirical evidence. When you go to the range, make the simulation as realistic as possible. Draw your weapon from concealment and shoot. It would be best if you could have a moving target. On that target, lightly draw in a 2" by 3" oval oriented with the length of the body. Put that oval as the groin. On a real situation, you won't be able to see the actual groin, so the oval should be light. Do this at a distance of 7 yards. This is the Tueller distance. A person with a knife can cover that distance in about 1.5 seconds. So, you need to be able to draw and fire, hitting the groin, in less than 1.5 seconds, otherwise the bad person got you with the knife. Do your testing and let us know how many times you hit the groin versus missed the groin and did it in less than 1.5 seconds. I can tell you right now, I can't do this, so this is not a personal challenge to your skills by me.

Keep a good record including the number of hits to the groin, to the lower abdomen, upper legs, or outright misses.

If that doesn't work, see how many times you can hit the groin oval at 7 yards, from concealment, in less than 2 seconds, less than 2.5, and less than 3.0. My guess is that you will be able to hit it repeatedly at 2.5 and 3.0, but what about the times you don't?

To do this, see if the range has a timer you can use that will give you a start tone and will record the shot times as you shoot. The timer will add pressure to your shooting situation and in real life, you will have plenty of pressure...a lot more than that put on you by the timer. I think you will be surprised by the results. Take this exercise as a learning experience. It will likely reveal various weaknesses including difficulties in obtaining the right grip quickly, finding the sights, finding the intended target area, difficulties with cover garments, and consistency.

Remember, smooth is fast. A slower draw will make the target come into your sights much easier and suprisingly much quicker than jerky fast movements. As you get better drawing a firing, speed will come. What took you 2.5 seconds this week may only take you 2.0 seconds next month...if you practice.
 
I don't remember where I read this but here it is.
The BF had stopped but was still menacing. The Officer had not fired a shot and was trying to control the situation. The Officer lowered his weapon to about a 30 degree from the horizontal position and the BG threw away his weapon and put his hands in the air.
When asked by the PD why he had surrendered so suddenly after all the time the time they had been trying to disarm him. He said the Officer was fixing to shoot of my b*lls off.
That might be worth remembering if the shooting has not started yet and you are trying to control the situation. I know I would not like to have to admit I had my equipment shot of by the home owner I was robbing. :)
 
Very interesting topic, all.

GOPHER--Excellent replies, excellent reasoning. I was mentally composing my response and then read yours and you really covered the ground quite well. I was particularly going to mention that the instructor "has issues."

Also note--EVERY self defense shooting will be carefully reviewed and EVERY shooter is closely questioned. There will most probably be checks into the nature and type of training. If it develops that you intentionally shot some bad guy in the genitals, it will NOT look good. Intentional maiming, vengence shooting, punishment type deal, etc. Better to just pop him COM, and only change from there if you need a change of plan.

One point needs stressing: Texas DPS teaches instructors to teach "We shoot to STOP, not shoot to KILL." They teach that the best way to do this is to aim for CENTER OF MASS. This is mainly because it allows for greatest margin of error during a VERY high stress situation. Any instructor who teaches shooting for any different area is out of policy. I don't want to tell a student to go for an area that promotes high probablility of either a miss or a through-and-through wound from which the bullet will carry on to another resting place.

Curuzer, please send me an e-mail with particulars about this instructor, date and location of the class. I will take the responsibility of notifying CHL reviewing authority. Instructors are obligated to take steps to correct such situations. Thank you.

Johnny Guest
Texas CHL instructor

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---The Second Amendment ensures the rest of the Bill of Rights---
 
Just wonder what size the major arteries in proximity to that area are. If you were to aim center and hit on the inside of the legs, what would be the chance of hitting one of the arteries?

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Cropping the ears of a jackass don't give him horse sense.
 
Pelvic area shots are a reasonable alternative when COM isn't doing the job (body armor.) While a head shot with a decent caliber is s sure stop, keep in mind that to some degree, the head can be moved independent of the main mass of the body (ducking, bobing to the side, etc.) This can't be done as quickly with COM or pelvic area.
Two to the chest, and if he doesn't go down, two to the pelvis. Once he's down, THEN put one in the head if he's armed with a gun or other "stand off weapon."

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Shoot straight & make big holes, regards, Richard at The Shottist's Center
 
Thanks to everyone for the excellent replies. A couple of quick comments:

1) The instructor clearly went through the curriculum of shooting at COM and shooting to stop...this is what he is required to teach.

2) During what was definitely "break-time" the instructor spent time discussing his own philosophy of being a "groin shooter" (not unlike the discussions on this board).

I apologize if this part of my original message was misleading. I was at the range for 12 hours and break-time/class-time blended easily. I am a firm believer in shooting at COM to stop...

[This message has been edited by Curuzer (edited September 18, 2000).]
 
This is what I term "getting cute" good way to get you killed.

BTW "DUCK ARMOR" Sells a ballistic cup!

Two COM then one to head, just dont miss head and he will be down.
 
Rusty S, around the groin, the biggest blood vessels are the femoral arteries. You should be able to find a heart beat from the femoral artery in the crease between the top of the leg and the lower portion of the torso in the groin region. If you have had CPR, this used to be a place where one might check for a pulse. It is a major blood supply. That being said, there are a lot more vessels around the heart for a COM shot. The heart is a small target, but a miss of the heart may still result in a major blood vessel strike.

And Johnny Guest is definitely correct about teaching CHL students that the only purpose for shooting a bad person is to STOP them. It just happens that some attempts at stopping will result in the death of the bad person.
 
fubsy

I did this drill in my LFI-1 class. It took me 1.92 seconds to draw and fire two relatively controlled shots at 7 yards (2.46 seconds for well controlled shots). I then asked about the speedrock and the instructor told me to try it. I got a 1.64, but one round hit the ground and the other went to the side. At 7 yards, speed rock isn't that great for me (at least, without a lot of practice).

The better plan, as mentioned above, is to draw, shoot to break the pelvis, moving to the side the whole time. That's why finding a range that you can move and shoot on is critical. My gun range doesn't even allow firing from the draw so I'm looking elsewhere.
 
Several years ago I was in an industrial accident that involved my pelvis being broken in 3 places (open-book fracture, ruptured bladder, etc., etc. I remained concious and helped direct the removal of the weight and had sufficient mobility to use my arms to lower myself from a 15' height. If I were a BG and had been shot in the pelvis, very likely you would be dead, dead, dead! A groin shot does not immediately disrupt a major bodily function such as thinking or circulation. You are putting yourself at risk by attempting to wound an assailant rather than stopping him.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rusty S:
Just wonder what size the major arteries in proximity to that area are. If you were to aim center and hit on the inside of the legs, what would be the chance of hitting one of the arteries?
[/quote]

Rusty,

A hit in a femoral artery can cause bleed-out in a matter of a minute or two. Only an aortic hit will cause a quicker bleed-out.

The chances of actually hitting the femoral when you need to, though, is about Zip.

There are a number of other, but much smaller, feeder arteries in the groin region.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
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