Shoot'em in the groin?

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Curuzer

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Just took my CHL class yesterday. By the way, it was quite simple and interesting despite the 10 hours in the classroom and 1 hour at the range.

During a break, the instructor discussed his own philosophy of shooting at the groin. Why? Well, what man doesn't value his groin? If the purpose is to stop someone, have you ever seen someone hit in the groin and not stopped? Also, as you draw, the groin is the first "valuable" area in the line of fire. If you miss the jewels on the first two shots, you can continue to follow-through and hit the COM. Finally, if you do hit the jewels, as the BG keels over you just may get a bonus hit on the crown of the head. I apologize for the graphic nature if it offends anyone... Any thoughts?



[This message has been edited by Curuzer (edited September 18, 2000).]
 
Not sure I'm in agreement here. COM is a much simpler and broader target--especially in a tense situation where you have little time to aim for the gonads. The general rule of thumb is double tap COM. If he (what if he's a she???) is still coming, them you can target downward toward the pelvic girdle and reduce mobility. Sometimes this is necessary if the BG has on body armor. Body armor doesn't cover the pelvis.

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Guyon
NRA & GOA Member
Vote for your rights!!!
 
The groin is the first valuable area in the line of fire? I think your instructor, while well-intended, is basing the arguments on a serious of assumptions, many of which may not be correct or applicable.

First, the instructor assumes the BG to be male, apparently. They aren't always male. If you shoot anyone in the groin area, it will hurt, but it is actually a SMALL target and you will probably miss the groin itself.

Second, the instructor assumes that you will be drawing from a side holster, not Mexican style, not SOB, not purse, and not fanny pack. The first valuable areas to come into the line of fire depend on the place or direction the gun is coming from. On a draw from a side holster, this would be the case, but not everyone uses side holsters.

Third, the instructor assumes a shot to the groin will produce a type of "stop shot" from what you described. One of the big arguments for not shooting people in the pelvis first (instead of COM) is that while the shot may reduce Bad Person mobility, it leaves the person fully able to shoot at you even though they may not be able to chase you. Additionally, there is virtually no chance that if you shoot someone in the groin that it will produce quick incapacitation, only mobility loss.

Fourth, the instructor assumes that you are a brilliant shot under a stress situation. The idea that you get a bonus shot to the crown of the head when the bad person bends over from the groin shot is rather naive. If you were good enough to shoot the groin in the first place, why not just direct your first shot to the eye area and produce a higher probability incapacitation shot (assuming you hit the eye area and the bullet travels into the brain). A head shot would be somewhat easier to make since the head is larger than the groin. As far as shooting the crown. The bone on the top of the head is much thicker than the bones of the face below the eye brows. A small caliber bullet may be deflected by the crown.

Fifth, the instructor seems to imply that a groin shot will stop the person. This seems to be based, in part, on the idea that pelvis shots stop people because a shot to pelvis will break it. This is a lot of wishful thinking. Assuming the pelvis is hit, it may simply be punctured, not broken, and hence the person will not be immobilized. They will be in pain and may limp, but not necessarily immobile.

Sixth, temperature can play a role as well, assuming the bad person is male. Many men, under cold conditions, have a condition where the penis and scrotum shrink up and seem to draw themselves to inside the body. This is a natural reaction to maintaining body heat for the reproductive parts. What does this mean? It means your target area just got significantly smaller than what you may have anticipated.

Seventh, if you miss the groin and shoot a little low, then you have likely totaly missed the bad person and wasted a shot. The beauty of COM shots is that they allow for the greatest margin of error, high, low, left, or right, while still producing a hit on the body. The groin shot does not.

Don't get me wrong here. Under stress, any shot to the body is better than a missed shot and a groin shot will get someone's attention (male or female), but then again, so will any shot to the body. However, I would not make the groin my primary target and by designating your first shot to the groin means that you have designated it as your primary target. After all, what if you ONLY GET ONE SHOT and it does not stop the bad person because it failed to connect with anything of importance in the small groin area? At that point, just click your heels together and start chanting, "I wish I were home, I wish I were home."

Sarcasm aside, I think your CHL instructor has some issues with groins that maybe need to be addressed by a professional...be it a shrink or a qualified tactical shooter.

Also, if your instructor spent 45 minutes on this topic, then you didn't get the information you should have gotten from the CHL class. You may wish to write DPS and tell them of your groin-topic experience because that does not appear to be standard DPS CHL instruction and it certainly is not good tactical instruction.
 
Gopher beat me to it with far better post.

Sam...hand cannon my eye, I want wheels on mine.

[This message has been edited by C.R.Sam (edited September 17, 2000).]
 
A shot to the groin really only makes sense if the objective is to break one of the bones in the pelvic girdle and make it impossible for the attacker to stand. Tactically, this objective only makes sense if the attacker has a contact weapon and is far enough away that breaking the girdle will end the attack.

If the attacker has a firearm a center of mass aiming point makes much more sense. For someone, especially a state CCW instructor, to tell people that a criminal will stoically take a shot to the heart but flinch at the idea of a shot to the penis seems delusional. I'd take another class from somebody else and see what else doesn't match up.
 
Don't listen to that instructor. If you miss the groin, then you have two stray bullets... you need to look at it THAT way. YOU are responsible for what ever they hit when you miss. It's not like the bad guy's going to be standing still like a stationary target anyways.

Ben

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Almost Online IM: BenK911
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"Gun Control Is Being Able To Hit Your Target" http://ben.gunsnet.net


[This message has been edited by Ben (edited September 17, 2000).]
 
Chances are, since a BG is out being a coward and out attacking innocent people that just want to be left alone, he would probably have a very small target in that area. Think you can hit it? ;)
 
Your instructor is missing the point. The idea is not to hit the family jewels (that's just a "bonus" I guess), but rather to bring the guy down. If you look at the area, you've got the pelvis, the lower spine, hip joints - anywhere you hit an individual down there he's going down.
I don't necessarily buy off on the theory, but it's about breaking down the skeletal structure, not shooting somebodies nutz off.



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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
 
Unless the BG is John Holmes' "bigger" brother, you're probably not going to hit much that's worthwhile. A low gut shot would be better and chest shot even better than that.
 
I'm talking if I was BG.

If I was a BG and you shot me in the nuts, you'd better kill me because I'd devote my life to ending yours. What else does a man have to live for except for guns and nuts :)


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"Chi Chi.... Chi Chi, Get The Yayo" - Tony Montana

"Get rid of that nickel plated sissy pistol and get yourself a Glock" - Tommy Lee Jones
 
A few others have already touched on the correct logic for this but let me see if I can add something to it without confusing the issue further ...

If a BG is coming at you with a knife, lead pipe, chain, etc. (but not a firearm) then a shot to the groin AREA (not the actual family jewels themselves) is preferred because you want to bring this person down before they can get to you -- a center of mass hit may or may not stop them quick enough before they can stick a knife into you. A broken hip, pelvis, etc.; will prevent the BG from advancing toward you.
 
I also go for the groin if I'd have a criminal in my house and a
shotgun ready. For the simple reason that if I miss a shot, it will
have to pass ten inches of concrete to pass to the lower level.

If I hit, the BG is usually out of combat and a soon-to-be member of
the Vienna Boys Choir. Talk about re-integration into society after
serving time. :)

A load of #1 buck will transgender any criminal.
 
I wouldn't say the groin is the first place to shoot however if you are in close quarters and need to draw/shoot quickly, say, under 3 ft from the attacker the lower abdomen is almost all liquid and is a very good target. but I wouldnt stop there
 
Instructor is wrong...can't just say
"shoot BG in the groin". The right insruction
should be "two in a groin, one in a tail".
 
On a pistol course taught to Marines by a NYPD Shooting Instructor and Reserve Marine the story was: First 2 shots COM, next shot head, and if that doesn't work then go for the groin. The logic being that if the first 2 don't work he's got body armor, if the 3rd doesn't work you missed, and the groin is the next spot because it's a relatively large target, not covered by body armor and has many major blood vessels running through it. It sounded good to me at the time and still does.

[This message has been edited by ONewman (edited September 17, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by ONewman (edited September 17, 2000).]
 
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