Shoot to Kill, or shoot to wound?
- Thread starter czmatt
- Start date
hummelsander
New member
Having the control to stop is the thing.
Mike in VA
New member
Every bit of training and reading I have been exposed to says that in the case of a threat that causes mortal fear for one's life or fear of grave bodily injury, one must shoot to neutralize the threat. If the attacker dies in the process, so be it. It is the only justification for lethal force. Saying that you shot to kill is de facto premeditataion. Never, ever say that. If you must shoot, it was to stop the attack. Period.
Shooting to wound is a criminal offense called 'malicious wounding'. You will go to jail and get your donkey sued off for it if there wasn't justification for lethal force. The princples are not hard, but the situational application can be pretty tough. Best wishes, stay safe -
Any questions?
Shooting to wound is a criminal offense called 'malicious wounding'. You will go to jail and get your donkey sued off for it if there wasn't justification for lethal force. The princples are not hard, but the situational application can be pretty tough. Best wishes, stay safe -
Any questions?
hummelsander
New member
What about having too much formal training. Does that ever work against the defendant in self defense cases? I'm speaking for the private citizen in this case.
Marty Hayes
New member
Hummelsander:
The only time I can see that training can be used against someone is if they either received poor training and followed the training, or if they did something against the training the received, and that act was inapropriate.
Training is a two edged sword. Make sure you choose your trainers carefully, and question anything they say if it doesn't make sense.
The only time I can see that training can be used against someone is if they either received poor training and followed the training, or if they did something against the training the received, and that act was inapropriate.
Training is a two edged sword. Make sure you choose your trainers carefully, and question anything they say if it doesn't make sense.
There are several "knows" in this question. Know your rights, know your responsibilities, know your weapon, know when to draw and know when to shoot. ( the last two should be really close together) Practice with your weapon until you can hit your target as easy as pointing your finger. Don't just shoot standing up, learn to draw and fire lying down (front, back, left, right) and shooting in all directions, and with either hand. Your weapon is your defense tool, learn to handle it with the same confidence as your mechanic handles a ratchet. The desision to fire and when to stop firing will come to you when it happens, if you train properly you will realize you have used your weapon after the situation is over. Carry with confidence.
Last edited:
progunner1957
Moderator
Shoot 'em in the leg - yeah, right
Shoot them in the leg is a myth kept alive by non-shooters and other uninformed types. If a thug is 10 or 15 feet away with a butcher knife and charges, shooting him in the leg will be about as easy as shooting a hummingbird in flight with your handgun. At a distance where you would be justified in shooting, time is your enemy - an attacking assailant gives you less than a second before you're history.
I have always believed in shooting for center of mass; if you can hit COM during an attack, that's about the best you can hope for, unless you are as skilled as the late great Bill Jordan.
If I ever have to shoot an attacker, I'm aiming for the sternum; good chance of a stop if hit there.
Shoot them in the leg is a myth kept alive by non-shooters and other uninformed types. If a thug is 10 or 15 feet away with a butcher knife and charges, shooting him in the leg will be about as easy as shooting a hummingbird in flight with your handgun. At a distance where you would be justified in shooting, time is your enemy - an attacking assailant gives you less than a second before you're history.
I have always believed in shooting for center of mass; if you can hit COM during an attack, that's about the best you can hope for, unless you are as skilled as the late great Bill Jordan.
If I ever have to shoot an attacker, I'm aiming for the sternum; good chance of a stop if hit there.
Jeff Gonzales
New member
Understanding lethal force
If you don't understand that you are employing lethal force to begin with then you are already behind the power curve. For the most part is has been a word game, but the fact is you employed lethal force to preseve life, yours or a loved one.
You engage the threat with lethal force until you get a complete sessation of hostilities. To think otherwise is only counter-productive and dangerous.
The fact they may die from the injuries you caused is not a priority compared to the fact you could die or be serious injured if you failed to act.
Don't get wrapped around the axle too much here. You either feel your life was in danger to the point that if you failed to act you could be seriously injured or killed and that to you justification for the use of lethal force was present. Or you don't.
To quickly achieve the complete sessation of hostilities through the application of lethal force.
Later,
If you don't understand that you are employing lethal force to begin with then you are already behind the power curve. For the most part is has been a word game, but the fact is you employed lethal force to preseve life, yours or a loved one.
You engage the threat with lethal force until you get a complete sessation of hostilities. To think otherwise is only counter-productive and dangerous.
The fact they may die from the injuries you caused is not a priority compared to the fact you could die or be serious injured if you failed to act.
Don't get wrapped around the axle too much here. You either feel your life was in danger to the point that if you failed to act you could be seriously injured or killed and that to you justification for the use of lethal force was present. Or you don't.
To quickly achieve the complete sessation of hostilities through the application of lethal force.
Later,
FrankDrebin
Moderator
Every now and then you read about a cop who shoots the gun out of someone's hand. Usually a suicidal person. That takes some guts and usually goes into the "all's well that ends well" category.
SatCong quote:
How so? How would these "anonymous" message board posts fall into the evidenciary pipeline after a justifiable shooting? I can't see during deposition one volunteering information such as:
Maybe it's just me.....but I don't see that happening.
U.F.O.
How so? How would these "anonymous" message board posts fall into the evidenciary pipeline after a justifiable shooting? I can't see during deposition one volunteering information such as:
Maybe it's just me.....but I don't see that happening.
U.F.O.
Last edited:
Nothing you post on the internet, unless you take a very significant series of careful steps, is truly anonymous to a determined investigator.
That's why I don't bother concealing my real name anywhere I post. If I think I might be embarassed if what I am about to post was published in the New York Times under a 72-point headline, I don't post it.
That's why I don't bother concealing my real name anywhere I post. If I think I might be embarassed if what I am about to post was published in the New York Times under a 72-point headline, I don't post it.
FrankDrebin
Moderator
I know lots of people who have shot lots of other people. Very, very few of them have been sued over a justifiable shooting. NONE of the ones involved in "off-duty" or "civilian" shootings have been sued. The odds are that you will NOT be sued for a justifiable shooting. Not the other way around.
Every now and then you read about a cop who shoots the gun out of someone's hand. Usually a suicidal person. That takes some guts and usually goes into the "all's well that ends well" category.
A retired police officer explained this to me - usually when someone is distraught and suicidal, they'll go through a pattern of motions with the firearm. Say they're sitting down, they'll bring the gun to to their head, then rest their hand on their knee, then hang it down by their side, then back to their head again.
The sniper will just lline up the sights on the spot where the gun is going to be in the next cycle, then take the shot when the subject repeats the routine.
A retired police officer explained this to me - usually when someone is distraught and suicidal, they'll go through a pattern of motions with the firearm. Say they're sitting down, they'll bring the gun to to their head, then rest their hand on their knee, then hang it down by their side, then back to their head again.
The sniper will just lline up the sights on the spot where the gun is going to be in the next cycle, then take the shot when the subject repeats the routine.
riverkeeper
New member
Read 'Gravest Extreme' by Ayoob
It is my understanding that in all but a couple of states, YOU or another innocent person must legitimitly be in reasonable danger of immediate great bodily harm to pull the trigger on someone.
Shooting to intentionally wound rather than stop requires much more skill/time/luck, and since stopping a perp will often take more than one round, it is stupid cuz your life is on the line -- shoot to stop!!
After wounding someone, a smart civil or criminal lawyer could use your choice to use less than lethal force to suggest the situation never warranted gunfire in the first place....etc
IF you have any reservatons about being able to assess a situation and when appropriate put the hammer down center mass, maybe you shouldn't carry.
Im sure you'll get this concept together. read the book - best on this subject and it is a skinny little fella.
It is my understanding that in all but a couple of states, YOU or another innocent person must legitimitly be in reasonable danger of immediate great bodily harm to pull the trigger on someone.
Shooting to intentionally wound rather than stop requires much more skill/time/luck, and since stopping a perp will often take more than one round, it is stupid cuz your life is on the line -- shoot to stop!!
After wounding someone, a smart civil or criminal lawyer could use your choice to use less than lethal force to suggest the situation never warranted gunfire in the first place....etc
IF you have any reservatons about being able to assess a situation and when appropriate put the hammer down center mass, maybe you shouldn't carry.
Im sure you'll get this concept together. read the book - best on this subject and it is a skinny little fella.
If you are sitting at home and you hear a crash and someone is beating in the windsheild of your car, could you shoot the little blankety blank's car? (this happened to me just today except no one woke up to stop the person(s) and it does not make me very happy). 
edit:Well, on second thought, there would probably be others in it.
edit:Well, on second thought, there would probably be others in it.
"How so? How would these "anonymous" message board posts fall into the evidenciary pipeline after a justifiable shooting? I can't see during deposition one volunteering information such as:"
I'll tell you how so. Its actually quite easy. Who do you think I am? I am a police officer, looking to retire fairly soon. Right now, as a "side job," I testify as an expert witness in court for officer involved shootings. What do you think I am going to do when I retire? Still need to make the house payment, kids braces, etc.
Please don't think I am the only one like this. There are THOUSANDS of people, all across the country, doing the samething I am. I know about these boards and, you can be GURANTEED Johnnie Cocharan and his law firm know about them. His law firm and OTHERS, routinely send out partners, etc to Gunsite, Blackwater Lodge, and all of other shooting schools out there. Not to mention, they log on and read these message boards too. Like him and the others or not, they aint stupid.
So its simple. Mr Jones is involved in a shooting. As a criminal investigator, I will write a search warrant for your house. In my search warrant I will request your computer, hard drive, floppy disks, CD's, DVD's, et al. Those will be ALL looked through by the FBI's crime lab. Your "anonymous" name will come up (don't believe that Cleanwash BS, doesn't work, they can still find it) and the fact of ALL of the nice gun sights you belong too.
Oh, did I forget to tell you, I will take a picture of, "Insured By Smith and Wesson" on the front of your house? Oh, and don't forget the nice, "Better tried by 12, then carried by 6" bumper sticker. And, when I collect all of your nice SWAT Magazines (your not a SWAT Team Member are you?), your James Bond Bible and all the other cute books from Paladin Press, etc and then all the nice posts on the internet how your going to give the bad guy "a mouth full of Glock." Yep, paints a pretty bad picture for your in court, now doesn't it? I've only scratched the surface of how nasty it can get.
I've suggested it before, so I will again: don't come up with fancy screen names and be careful about what you post and to whom. No warning stickers, no bumper stickers, no cute t-shirts, none of that junk. One thing, in and of itself, means nothing. But start getting it ALL and it paints a picture of a wannabe, psycho, who is out to kill someone. And that sir, is how I just made 5 grand in about 40 hrs worth of work...
I'll tell you how so. Its actually quite easy. Who do you think I am? I am a police officer, looking to retire fairly soon. Right now, as a "side job," I testify as an expert witness in court for officer involved shootings. What do you think I am going to do when I retire? Still need to make the house payment, kids braces, etc.
Please don't think I am the only one like this. There are THOUSANDS of people, all across the country, doing the samething I am. I know about these boards and, you can be GURANTEED Johnnie Cocharan and his law firm know about them. His law firm and OTHERS, routinely send out partners, etc to Gunsite, Blackwater Lodge, and all of other shooting schools out there. Not to mention, they log on and read these message boards too. Like him and the others or not, they aint stupid.
So its simple. Mr Jones is involved in a shooting. As a criminal investigator, I will write a search warrant for your house. In my search warrant I will request your computer, hard drive, floppy disks, CD's, DVD's, et al. Those will be ALL looked through by the FBI's crime lab. Your "anonymous" name will come up (don't believe that Cleanwash BS, doesn't work, they can still find it) and the fact of ALL of the nice gun sights you belong too.
Oh, did I forget to tell you, I will take a picture of, "Insured By Smith and Wesson" on the front of your house? Oh, and don't forget the nice, "Better tried by 12, then carried by 6" bumper sticker. And, when I collect all of your nice SWAT Magazines (your not a SWAT Team Member are you?), your James Bond Bible and all the other cute books from Paladin Press, etc and then all the nice posts on the internet how your going to give the bad guy "a mouth full of Glock." Yep, paints a pretty bad picture for your in court, now doesn't it? I've only scratched the surface of how nasty it can get.
I've suggested it before, so I will again: don't come up with fancy screen names and be careful about what you post and to whom. No warning stickers, no bumper stickers, no cute t-shirts, none of that junk. One thing, in and of itself, means nothing. But start getting it ALL and it paints a picture of a wannabe, psycho, who is out to kill someone. And that sir, is how I just made 5 grand in about 40 hrs worth of work...
So....lemme get this straight.
You're a member of a couple of gun message boards, maybe even the NRA (God forbid) and have a t-shirt that says "S & W Rules" you're screwed if you have to shoot someone in valid self defense? I don't buy that. There is such a thing as "weight of evidence" in regards to the facts behind specific events. Sure, with a search warrant your computer could be confiscated and I'm sure a DA with valid questions about the "justifiability" of your case might do just that. But then, you'd have much bigger problems in general with a weak case for your having taken a shot than what bumper sticker is on your car. If the facts uncovered during the investigation were clear cut and irrefutable that you acted correctly, do you think any search warrant would be issued for your home in the first place? I don't. I'd love to see documentation of what percentage of CCW shooters ever have criminal (or civil) charges filed against them. My guess is not nearly as many as don't. Just MHO only and what do I know?
U.F.O.
You're a member of a couple of gun message boards, maybe even the NRA (God forbid) and have a t-shirt that says "S & W Rules" you're screwed if you have to shoot someone in valid self defense? I don't buy that. There is such a thing as "weight of evidence" in regards to the facts behind specific events. Sure, with a search warrant your computer could be confiscated and I'm sure a DA with valid questions about the "justifiability" of your case might do just that. But then, you'd have much bigger problems in general with a weak case for your having taken a shot than what bumper sticker is on your car. If the facts uncovered during the investigation were clear cut and irrefutable that you acted correctly, do you think any search warrant would be issued for your home in the first place? I don't. I'd love to see documentation of what percentage of CCW shooters ever have criminal (or civil) charges filed against them. My guess is not nearly as many as don't. Just MHO only and what do I know?
U.F.O.