Shoot once or twice in defense..

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RE: Permitting a guy with a knife @ 21 ft. to get closer, isn't the purpose of this thread something to do with self-defense; not how to commit suicide? :cool:
 
Shoot as fast as you can hit center of mass of the target provided until the threat has stopped. Reload and scan / cover. Kick away any weapon still in the possession of your threat as you continue to cover. Call for EMS and police as you continue to cover. Then call your lawyer.
 
RoscoeC said:
The class I took taught that a pistol is not a powerful weapon. Shots to the head are rarely effective. The skull is thick. Rounds to the head usually glance off. The only effective shots to the head must hit in the eyes or nasal cavity area. Very difficult to hit. Any place else is a crapshoot. Rounds should be placed between the nipples and the chin. As many as it takes for the threat to stop.
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Roscoe,

I hope you realize that many firearms instructors fluff up their credentials to give themselves more credibility. They tout their opinions as stone cold facts. If you are not using a tiny pocket gun shooting underpowered rounds (anything less than 9mm), head shots are VERY EFFECTIVE. It is possible that the round may hit at a glancing angle and not penetrate, but practically any shot (again with 9mm and up) that hits at a perpendicular angle will penetrate. There are always exceptions to the rule but don't think a head shot won't kill you. Personally, I'd prefer to get hit with a COM shot versus a head shot any day... Actually, I'd prefer to not get shot at all! :eek: :D

While the shot you described will likely hit the heart or lungs, it will not instantly incapacitate someone unless you hit the spinal chord. Someone who is drugged up or running on pure adrenaline may continue to fight even if they are mortally injured. Continuing to take COM shots even after the first few are ineffective is useless at best and deadly (for you) at worst. The only instantly incapacitating shot (according to FBI SWAT/HRT) is one that destroys the medulla oblongata which lies behind the eyes. According to them, that shot is INSTANTLY incapacitating and someone will drop IMMEDIATELY. (Do not pass GO, Do not collect $200). This is used when the suspect has a gun to someone's head or some kind of detonation device.

The best shot is still the center of mass (since it is easier to hit), but if those shots are ineffective, go for the head.
 
I've never had to shoot anybody, but if I had to the number of shots I would fire before stopping and evaluating the situation would depend on the gun I was carrying. With my Springer Mil-Spec it would be 9 shots, my Beretta 96 would be 13 and my Sig P228 would be 16 shots.

When I practice at the range I empty my weapon as fast as I can can while still keeping my shots on COM. Unless the bad guy drops out of my sight picture, I'm not likely to stop firing until slide lock. Bullets are cheap, so I don't see any reason to be stingy with them.

Remember, it's always better to give than receive. ;)
 
ATW525 said:
When I practice at the range I empty my weapon as fast as I can can while still keeping my shots on COM. Unless the bad guy drops out of my sight picture, I'm not likely to stop firing until slide lock. Bullets are cheap, so I don't see any reason to be stingy with them.
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Good defense attorneys are not...

ATW525,

It is good to practice getting your shots on target quickly, but going for slide lock may not be looked upon favorably by the police, a district attorney, and if it gets to it, a jury. For me, I would say shoot until the bad guy's weapon is no longer pointing at me. This may be because he has dropped his weapon, he is on the ground, or he "surrenders" (hands up). I would keep my gun trained on him and have him kick the gun away. I would then order him to lie face down with his hands interlocked over his head. I would then call the police and an ambulance. This is assuming that he can comply because he isn't dead already.

I don't believe in "finishing" shots as this crosses the line between self defense and murder. You can say that dead people don't sue, but you need to remember that their families still can. Besides, that finishing shot may be the difference between a good self defense shooting and getting arrested and prosecuted.
 
It is good to practice getting your shots on target quickly, but going for slide lock may not be looked upon favorably by the police, a district attorney, and if it gets to it, a jury.
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I can't say I'll be taking the time to ponder the politically correct number of bullets when it's my life on the line. As they say, it's better to be judged by twelve than carried by six. I want to put the maximum amount of lead into the other guy in the minimum amount of time, because I will be the one left standing when it's over.

Going into it with the mindset of shooting to slidelock just makes the most sense to me. If he happens to hit the ground or flee before I run out of bullets, then good for him. If he's still on his feet and in my line of sight when I hit slidelock, then I'll evaluate whether he's still threat when I'm reloading and moving to cover.

I most definitely am not advocating finishing people off while they lay bleeding on the ground, however. Nor am I saying you should keep shooting until the gun is empty regardless of the situation. If it's readily apparant the threat has been stopped then it's time to cease fire.
 
I understand what your saying. You just have to be careful what you say infront of your friends and peers because a prosecuter will ask them what you have said in the past. Anytime ANYONE asks me that question my answer is and will be - Shoot at the center of mass at the largest target provided and shoot to stop. Shoot until the threat is down. And Good lord, If you shoot a finishing shot after the threat has ceased you WILL be prosecuted. Shooting to stop is self defense. A finishing shot is MURDER. If the threat takes one hit....... If the threat sees my gun and gives up, drops the weapon and complies or runs away I do not fire. My weapon is to stop the threat, Not kill.
 
ATW525,

The problem arises when you revert to what you practice. I fully agree that it is better you than him, but I don't want a good shoot to turn into a criminal case against me. While you may tout the phrase "better judged by 12 than carried by 6", I believe there is a third option which is neither being judged by the 12 or being carried by the 6.

I guess this is when we start having debates about why anything less than a .45 acp is useless and why anything less is asking for a failure to stop. Then i expect someone to say that handguns are useless and that only shotguns and rifles are of any defensive value. I certainly hope it doesn't go down that path... :rolleyes:
 
One or two BGs = three's.
Two or more BGs = two's.

I always practice in three's, so I intend to shoot in three's.
With more than two BGs enough ammo may be a problem so I'd go for two's.
 
Stephen 426: Do you consider yourself to be a good defense attorney? How much is your legal advice worth? What was your standing in your law school class? How many years have you practiced criminal defense law? In what states are you licensed? Do you give a discount for TFL members?
 
Ausserordeutlich said:
Do you consider yourself to be a good defense attorney? How much is your legal advice worth? What was your standing in your law school class? How many years have you practiced criminal defense law? In what states are you licensed? Do you give a discount for TFL members?
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What is the point of your post? To play big shot lawyer? I am not a lawyer and I do not play one on TV. Johnnie Cochran is dead so you had better find someone else. He cost OJ Simpson over $3.5 million. But hey, if you want to place your freedom in the hands of some rookie public defender, then go right ahead. If I read correctly, the NRA will also help you out if you are a member, but I doubt they would really go out on a limb in a questionable shooting.

Anyway, my post was made in response to ATW525 comment that "bullets are cheap". What jury would not at least consider the possibility that the defendant was actually guilty of murder with a statement like that? Pretty much everything I have read indicates that you should not say anything to the police without an attorney present and if forced to speak, say you shot to stop the threat. If you have some better advice, please share.

By the way, I thought the term criminal attorney was redundant.
 
Well, I sort of resemble that remark. Yes, I have a JD. Yes, I have worked in the DA's office, as an intern, for 6 months.

What is the law's, and the DA's concern: Was the person in threat of their life, and, where they justified in shooting? After that, it's pretty much moot. We REALLY want to get the bad guys, and, if we have a guy with a 20 page rap sheet, and someone shoots him, we aren't going after the shooter, if it was justified. The entire Ayoob, handloads, multiple shots, etc. stuff never made it into consideration.

Believe it or not, most of the guys we dealt with where clearly criminals, carrierwise, and, if someone actually had a gun, in San Francisco, ownership is now illegal, pending Supreme Court ruling, and shot one, the DA has far better things to do then prosecute innocent people, when so many are clearly criminals. Why waste time on a borderline case, when you have tons of really bad people to put away?

S
 
Socrates,

I fully understand that DA's have better things to do than prosecute innocent people. What happens if the person you shot happens to not have a major rap sheet either because he he is new to the world of crime or he just hasn't been caught yet? Then would a DA consider the possibility that emptying a full magazine into the guy might have been a little excessive and question the whole self defense arguement? I'm not saying it will happen, but I'm pretty sure that it will increase the likelihood of happening. You guys can do what you like, but I'm stopping as soon as the threat is over. I just hope I can do it with a few well placed shots rather than pumping the guy full of lead.
 
With my SIG on me...self defense starts with one long hard trigger pull followed immediately by 14 more shorter, easier trigger pulls...or as many as needed until threat is no longer a threat.
 
FWIW I have spent almost 10 years as the investigator (read "office cop") for a PA office. The prime considerations in evaluating cases like this go something like this-

  • Would a reasonable person have felt in danger of death or serious bodily injury, either for themselves or for a third party whom they were acting in defense of?
  • Is the use of force in this instance otherwise justified under the law?
  • Did the shooter do anything to contribute to the breach of peace that precipitated the act of defense?
  • Were there other options available besides the use of deadly force? (Retreat, etc.-may not apply in your state.)
  • Was the use of defensive force immediate to the threat, or did the actor leave and return with a weapon and 'restart' the dispute?
  • Was the force applied beyond the point where it was justified under the law?

This is not a comprehensive list, but in my experience these questions almost always get asked- whether the person using deadly force is Joe Citizen, or Joe Cop (except the 5th one). Nobody in my experience has ever considered whether the ammunition used in a clearly defensive shooting was ball, reloads, JHP or whatever. This includes 12 years of law enforcement experience beyond the PA office. Premidated murder is another matter entirely, and the ammo selected by the shooter is fair game.

I will suggest that pumping rounds into someone after the 'fight is out of them' is a good way to wind up in prison. I have seen it happen.

I will also suggest that the political environment in your area may be such that the DA or PA is 'gunning' for people who use firearms on other people, whether they needed shot or not. What 'goes' in west Texas may not 'go' in New Yawk Sitty. State laws are different throughout the US, as are the views of the 'powers that be' regarding the defensive use of firearms.

It shouldn't be this way, but it is what it is. You'd do well to consider this before living or hanging around in environs where your right to self defense is questioned on its face.

If you have questions about your specific area, write or call your state Attorney General's office. Ask for a response in writing, or a reference to the statute that applies in self defense/use of dealy force cases.
 
New to this site.

Theres alot of talk about pistols, mainly because that's what people keep on their nightstand. I keep a shotgun under the matress. 870 Express Magnum loaded with #4 buckshot. Its much easier to put an intruder down with a COM hit with such a shell. However, i dont have kids. I might be a little more concerned about using a shotgun if i had little ones around.
 
Ace On The Line,

I think it really depends how many people you are up against. I had my first IPSC shooting experience last week and the typical drill is two shots for each cardboard target before moving to the next target. Considering that the primary defense weapon for most of us (outside the house) is a handgun, 2 to the chest is not a bad idea, especially since it takes just a fraction of a second more. It is much faster to put 2 in the same target than to reacquire your sights for a second round of shots. Besides, unless your shots are instantly incapacitating, the badguys you shot may still be able to shoot you. Practice double taps if you are allowed and you will be suprised how quickly you can get 2 shots off. Now if your concern is ammo capacity because you carry a 5 shot revolver or a small pocket gun, you might want to go one shot each or double tap each and then reolad from cover. I doubt you will get caught in a fire fight way out in the open, and I seriously doubt that everyone will just be standing there shooting at each other. Thats just my $.02 worth anyways.
 
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