Shoot once or twice in defense..

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hsim, I respect your opinion, but I'll give you mine also :). I feel most people on this forum understand we are talking human life. We do not go to the range to play around, and take practice seriously. We also must have a clear mindset of how we will respond to a life threatening situation. Discussing a single vs. double tap in practice or in mindset should be no different.
In addition, I do not feel that someone who is trying to take out myself or my family is a human being, they are a target.
(Opinions are like *******s, everyone has one).
 
frankly, someone who is trying to kill me...or someone with me, isn't going to get a moment of moral debate in my mind...if a criminal doesn't want to get shot, then don't choose me as a potential victim to begin with...then my gun will always be cold and loaded instead of hot and empty in my pocket or drawer...self-preservation is a very practical action..
 
In addition, I do not feel that someone who is trying to take out myself or my family is a human being, they are a target.

yomama,

I agree, it just seems that sometimes we (the forum in general) discuss such matters a little too blasé.

I agree, if someone really needs shooting, you shot them, but do you really count how many times? or give reasons and explanation as to why you would shot them once, twice or three times? If placed in such a situation, would you not shot until the treat is neutralized? rather then, well I practice double taps, so that's what I'll do?

At 21 ft. BG coming at you with a knife, shot him once or twice or more? answer: run!
 
Hsim

At 21 ft. BG coming at you with a knife, shot him once or twice or more? answer: run!

Unfortunately, not all of us have the luxury of running. I have sustained an extremety injury that has permanently impacted my ability to run. For me, the BG at 21ft and a knife gets shot until he stops coming at me or those I am protecting.
As for the 2 in the chest 1 in the head doctrine (don't remember who said that one) I can consistently do that in IDPA style matches but those targets don't move or shoot back. I would probably still do that in the real world as that is the way I train.
 
This ain't sesame street. Forget counting.

I used to try counting rounds during IPSC matches. Even with a predetermined plan of action it's hard to keep up under mild stress. It'll never happen during a real life self defense shooting. You won't know whether you've fired 3 rounds or 13. Most LEO's involved in a shooting can't accurately recall how many shots were fired during the gun battle. Your brain has other priorities and will disregard anything not immediately necessary for survival. That includes everything from math skills to auditory exclusion and loss of fine motor skills.

The short answer is put rounds ON TARGET until the threat no longer exists. Then reload and be prepared to go again. The only thing you need to be thinking about is putting rounds on target.
 
Shoot fast, to COM.

WHERE? The Center of mass.
WHEN? When the person becomes a threat to the life of innocent people.
HOW? Multiple shots as accurate as speed allows.
WHY? Because If i were an attacker, this would really suck.

This is just my Opinion and how i train to react to situations.
Im also starting to get into the Move and shoot thing, its harder than it sounds, but definintly worth the work.
I thimk COM shots are the most efficient, because bigger targets are "easier" to hit, and hits are what stop attackers, not near hits to the brain.
 
When/if somebody forces me to use a weapon to defend myself or others, I can't fathom that religious, moral, or legal matters would pop in my mind. Shoot a lot until they stop. Usually, they'll be dead, and that would be the absolute best outcome for you and for society in general.
 
"Most police departments teach their officers to DOUBLE TAP into the chest."

Actually, very few agencies teach double tap any more. Sure, you'll no doubt find the occasional agency that does but not if their ROs have been keeping up with updated training. The training today, and has been for a few years, is to continue shooting until the threat stops. If the threat stops after 1 shot then stop shooting. If you've fired 6 shots and the threat continues then keep firing.
One often reads posts about why the number of rds fired by police on average for each shooting has increased over the years. Those who haven't been involved in the training, and arm chair commandos, put their supposition in that it's because the police are bad shots. That's not it at all. The reason being is training has changed from double taps or 2 to the body and 1 to the head, then assess to what's been SOP for training of continue firing until the threat stops. Anyone who has been involved in a shooting situation will know that seldom does a person stop after being hit once. Even if that first hit is a fatal wound does not mean the threat will cease. They may continue as if not hit at all. Therefore, training today is keep putting rds in the threat until the threat quits being a threat.
 
Untill they stop moving... yes.

But I fire a hammer pair right off the bat (double tap as fast as you can pull the trigger). I don't have time to figure out whether or not the first round did the job before the second round hits. Automatic, and yes, you asses but it's not an all day/smoke a cigerrate affair. Fire a hammered pair and if the target keeps coming fire more rounds. If he's down and out then search and assess for other threats before going back to a lowered alert state (and the alert carry for your firearm). I do this for everything, primary (rifle) or secondary (pistol). If I'm engaging at ranges of 100m or more (obviously with a rifle), then I'll slow the rate of fire and see the effects of my fire. Obviously a civie won't be firing at someone 100m away, but I'm infantry. That's just how I train and it works well for me.
 
someone at 21 feet with a knife, wait till they get closer. Then shoot them better they tried to harm you and died for it than try and hurt someone else. Il never understand this whole idea that if someone is trying to rob you better to let them have your money and everyone live personaly i think if you choose to rob someone getting shot should be one of those risks you should deal with.
 
someone at 21 feet with a knife, wait till they get closer
HUH?
You and I can cover 21 ft in about 1.5 seconds. So can a bad guy.
Do you have your gun in your hand or in a holster? reaction time is almost always slower than action that precipitates it.

21 ft and closer you're gonna get cut... badly.
 
I didn't see the reason for triple tap posted so I guess I will reply with the "wearing a vest" theory .

If two to center mass is somewhat ineffective, the thought is that the perp may have a vest . Moving to a secondary position is then advisable. The head was thought then to be the best "other" location , but some teach the pelvic area as a better choice .
 
21 feet with a badguy who has a knife,.... yeah right depends on the situation

in my ccw class in AZ we watched a video that basically said, if you have your hand on your gun ready to draw your chances of getting your gun on target and delivering an accurate shot on a person running at you from 30 is virtually 0.... maybe this is crap but sounds pretty true to me...

as far a shooting goes, i practice shooting as rapidly as i can aquire a target until my gun is empty reload and repeat.... and for practical purposes i would take COM shots unless it was a very unusal situation since i am just your average joe... not in the military/police
 
The class I took taught that a pistol is not a powerful weapon. Shots to the head are rarely effective. The skull is thick. Rounds to the head usually glance off. The only effective shots to the head must hit in the eyes or nasal cavity area. Very difficult to hit. Any place else is a crapshoot. Rounds should be placed between the nipples and the chin. As many as it takes for the threat to stop. Shots to the center of mass will do little to stop the threat. My instructor spent much of his LEO career investigating shootings. He relates that often after a shooting incident an officer will look down and see the blood, and exclaim "Oh, crap, I have been shot". If you have been forced to make the decision to use your weapon, use it. Don't screw around or you may be the ultimate casualty.

If I ever have to fire (God forbid that should ever happen), It will be rapid fire to the area between the nipples and chin until the BG turns and runs or goes to the ground. This is my mindset, and this is how I practice.
 
If you have to think and count you are not going to make it. The only decision you make in a gunfight is to shoot. Once the that decision is made, training takes over. If you haven't trained enough that your reflexes take over you are going to be standing there jumping around like a monkey in a red ant bed and you probably won't pull the trigger much less hit anything.
 
Fire a NSR (Non standard responce.. 3-5 rounds)COM.. These shot don't need to be touching.. If they are speed up.. Spread the love around the COM.. Hit as many pipes and pumps as you can.. If target is still standing / still in your sight picture place one or more in the head..

Target no longer in sight picture? Is he down? Better question is he DONE? Or did he just hit the deck when rounds started flying?

Ok he is done.. Does he have any friends? yes/ no?

Do I need to reload? YES

Am I ok? Just a quick glance from wrist to feet back to wrist.. Your looking for blood.. You may not know you were hit..

And all this should be done while on the move and with the use of cove if possable!

A lot to think about.. Even more to think about when you add sight picture, trigger reset, recoil control, malf's ect...

Train, train TRAIN!
 
I'm an older duffer, age 70, I'm in pretty good physical condition and still mentally sharp---but---reaction time and visual aquity really has gone down hill as I age.
I spent 30 years in the military and trained rather extensively with all types of firearms and I can vouch for the fact that a handgun is the least desireable weapon for self defense. Having said that, we can't conceal and carry shotguns or rifles so we have to make do with pistols.
Perhaps no longer subscribed to but years ago I was educated on the "Rule Of Threes". That being that most civilian gunfights are fought at a distance of three feet, with three shots fired and is over in three seconds. So at my age, with diminished sight and reaction time, I have to click off as many rounds as possible to neutralize a B/G. Again at my age, the odds are heavily in favor of the B/G and I'll probably lose but I'm comfortable knowing he's gonna get bit once or twice. I train for a double tap in the upper chest then work down from there (a moving head's too small of a target), a .40S&W round will break a pelvis and drop him in his tracks, also a 40S&W in the gonads may not incapacitate him but it will make him wonder why he initiated the fight in the first place.:cool:
 
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