Shoot at the pelvis to stop an attack?

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I was a street cop in Ft Worth, Texas working primarily in the inner city in the early to mid 80's before being hired by the US Border Patrol. Before all that I was an MP in the Army. I have been doing this since 1979 in some very dangerous places. I have seen more than a few.....

But then I also have friends that I trust in the business, homicide detectives, etc so I don't just rely on MY anecdotal evidence to form an opinion.

In the mid 80's pawn shops sold wadcutters by singles for $2 each, the most common street gun I ran into for a while was an RG 38 special.
 
Personally, I'd just shoot center of mass. While the pelvis shot sounds good in theory, I'd rather just concentrate on shooting quickly and accurately at the biggest target I can see rather than trying to snipe at critical areas.
 
Personally, I'd just shoot center of mass. While the pelvis shot sounds good in theory, I'd rather just concentrate on shooting quickly and accurately at the biggest target I can see rather than trying to snipe at critical areas.
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Well dang AJ. Attitudes like yours (you know, being REASONABLE and all) will curtail LOTS of our discussions here. Better watch yourself. :D

And Welcome to TFL.
 
Indeed its just that kind of reasoned post that has no place on the internet. :D

(shoot until the threat stops, don't get fancy).
 
Part of table 2 for USMC rifle qual., is a "failure-to-stop" drill. Put two shots in the chest, another incapacitating in the pelvic girdle, or "T-box" (ocular and nasal cavities). This is to simulate an attacker at close range (5 yards), that won't go down with normal " kill-zone" shots.

For score, and for practical application, the pelvic girdle is an easier target. It's much larger than the T-box as mentioned above, and you merely need to shift your aim down. If you miss the pelvic girdle, you will still likely be hitting the torso, and causing fatal injury.

The FTS (failure to stop) drill, would often be incorporated into what is called a "box drill", which was to simulate multiple attackers. Two targets. 2 shots to the chest on one, use the recoil from that second shot to help transition to next target. 2 shots to that chest. Here they might have you drop to a knee, regardless, fire an incapacitating shot to the 2nd target, and then the same to the first.

With a little practice, you can become surprisingly fast. The above is often qualified for, on the same day you get to practice for it. Using a carbine at that distance with a fixed power optic, is more of a hindrance than if done with a pistol.

That gun club seems to think it has merit. I will say in my personal opinion, light that target up until it's no longer a threat. Nothing suppresses or eliminates a threat, like swift, violent actions. Especially in the form of overwhelming fire :)
 
When I learned to shoot back in the early 70's, I was taught to shoot at the pelvis since breaking the pelvic bone will put a man down while a shot or two to the chest, even the heart, can leave them standing and coming towards you for 30 seconds. Sure there are big gaps in the pelvic bone but the odds of hitting it are better than hitting a spine.

Not many teach this anymore and glad to see Mas teaching it to his classes. You may even hit something near and dear to the bad guy too. :)
 
DNK

What Ayoob says makes since to a deer hunter like me. Well if you don't want to waste much meat you take a heart shot and trail the deer for a bit where he is eventually piled up.

If you want the deer to drop where he is at you take a spine or neck shot, but if you miss that won't happen and you may wound him and never find him

If you want to anchor a deer in the near vicinity you break his shoulder and hopefully hit some other vitals like major arteries, veins and he isn't going too far and most the time they drop allowing a second shot.
 
This is a moot point. Unless you have opportunity, a shot to center mass is going into a larger"stop" zone, and imo, should be first line. A center mass pelvic area shot can be a good stop shot, too, but I don't think that it should be chosen in emergency. Center mass is dead straight, almost, where training and practice rounds go. Stay with what you know, don't attempt a shot at an unfamiliar target that is off the normal aiming plane.

Walk through a mall. See how easy it is to see where the center of the chest is? Try spotting the pelvis. Harder, isn't it? Could you draw and shoot center mass comfortably? Can you draw and shoot the pelvis with that same amount of certainty, just as quickly, and be sure that you'll hit bone and knock him down?

If you have the time and opportunity to seek out a pelvic shot, do you have time to do something else instead, like find cover?

I agree completely that a pelvic shot can end a fight, but hey, people have been known to kill after heart shots. Why do we believe that a shot to the pelvis that makes a guy fall will stop him from shooting?

Chaos is what controls a gunfight, neither shooter has much control.

So, you've heard a lot of good advice. Mull it over, and ask yourself where the greatest risks lie. Imo, there aren't significant odds that a number of center mass hits will fail to end hostilities. I believe that it usually works pretty well.

Otoh, remember that there are only a few places in the pelvis area that are disabling, and honestly, I don't think that even the best pelvic hit will stop the bad guy more reliably than a center mass shot.
 
Well dang AJ. Attitudes like yours (you know, being REASONABLE and all) will curtail LOTS of our discussions here. Better watch yourself.

And Welcome to TFL.
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Thanks. I'll try not to inject reason into too many arguments. I'm aiming for the hip from now on! :D
 
Last night, I was at a store. I spent a few minutes looking at people as they passed. Guy with a long jacket, Guy with baggy, droopy pants, woman in sweats, various other baggy clothing. The only people who were remotely evident were a couple guys with tucked polo shirts. In a couple cases, it took several seconds. Add in movement, darkness, other possible confusion situations.

The options are to just keep hammering at the chest, taking the few seconds it would take to stop the aggression, or to take a series of not necessarily effective shots.

Somebody can answer my next question. Would a series of taps to the chest be enough to stop him from shooting as the shots make impact?

Now, picture missed shots to the pelvis that only perforated soft tissues. Will that also be enough to put a bad guy down with an equal number of hits?

I don't really need to share my opinion, these are just a statement of my concerns.
 
There have been many stories of multi-hlt body shots not stopping a determined attacker. These usually associated with police and perhaps differ do to the adrenaline of the confrontation. I recall on story vividly about an officer responding to a bank robbery. The bad guy had left the bank and the cop had decided where the bad guy would go. The cop, a marksmanship trainer, Jumped on the freeway and saw a car that fit the description. He pulled along side and the drivers reaction said he was right.
After getting off the freeway and chasing him through a business area the bad guy led him into a residential area. The car stopped and the bad guy jumped out shooting. In order to put some distance between him and the bad guy he through the car into reverse an stepped on the accelerator hard. The car lurched rearward and then just stopped as though it was in neutral. He got down and accessed his pistol and began to fire back as he exited his car. To keep this short the cop went through all but three of his rounds (over 100) and sustained gun fire injury but stopped the bad guy.
The bad guy had been hit in both lungs, the heart more than once, the spleen and both kidneys. The round that finally stopped the bad guy was a head shot. There were no drugs in the bad guys blood to explain the resistance to the wounds he received. Now I am certainly not an expert and this is one example out of many but I have to believe that a head shot is a sure way to stop a determined bad guy. If you practice to hit a rectangle about 3.5" wide and 1.5" high you should be able to hit that spot intuitively. Even if the guy is wearing a motorcycle helmet with a full face shield it is almost always possible to hit that target. The target is in the same place with a side shot and drops about 1.5" at the rear.

That is what I have decided to practice with. I am moving away from center of mass to head shots for my first choice target.
 
Mmm ok. Do you practice with swingers to simulate a moving head? Its...fun.

Note: your skill level may be such where that is a viable target.
 
My skill level is there, the problem is I have a lot of years practicing with heart shots. I have to change my instinctual target. It will take time but the more I practice the better I will get at it.
 
Every action has exceptional events. For every person who survives multiple rounds to center mass, the r Wil literally be hundreds who go down with a simple shot in the shoulder, or other non disabling hit.

If the chances of a bad guy taking a metric fartload of hits from an expert like yourself and still firing his weapon and wounding you afterwards are maybe 500 to 1, why would anyone choose to take shots at a probably moving target the size of a pummelo?

Myself, just like a hip shot, my chances of getting a beautiful, knockout shot in a big hurry are probably no better than even before the by fires at me.

I'd love to hear from real cops and trainers, hear their policies for training. Shoot for mostly reliable center mass, or take the time to s t art with an alternative target Thais a much smaller disabling zone?

I refuse to even contemplate calling a femur shot as a kill zone. Nothing down there will do anything more than put the shooter on h I s knees and eventually bleed out.
 
My skill level is there, the problem is I have a lot of years practicing with heart shots.
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While there may be places for a head shot to stop an attacker, the likelihood of making that shot under the stress of most deadly attacks is not good. There are many of us who given a little time time in a static situation can make the shot. Time is the key though, and is generally in very short supply in this situation. I regularly practice double tap head shots and shooting while moving, but center mass is my primary target. A moving head is a tough target, and all rounds have to be accounted for. I will stick to center mass unless there is compelling reason to do something else.
 
Well, I learned something today by looking up "pummelo."

I am not a professional with firearms, but I can sure see the difficulty in making head shots. I'm not sure I see your concerns about a pelvis shot, though, briandg. We are really just talking about getting rounds in the lower part of the trunk rather than the upper trunk. You don't have to pick off the femoral artery or the femur to get a damaging shot down there. I don't buy the idea that a pistol shot will shatter a pelvis, but if a BG is still coming after two or three rounds to the chest, causing pain and blood loss in a new part of the body seems like a reasonable thing to try. There are some big arteries and veins in the lower abdomen and pelvis, and stuff in that region that leaks and causes some pretty severe and immediate pain. There would always be the possibility that you were walking your shots off of body armor, too.
 
I watched a couple guys on a duelling tree once, what was it, five or six inches, twenty feet?

These plates weren't even moving. They popped up, the just sat there and you shot.

So, these guys could both pop six inch bullseye targets all day. But what happened when the targets changed position,there were several to keep track of, and there was a little bit of distraction, meaning a guy next to him who was shooting? Keeping in mind that the shooter at the next station was just popping rounds down range next to him, not shooting at him.

Seriously, these two guys who were actually pretty capable, couldn't even handle the very slight pressure placed on them by such a low level of competition, distraction, movement,and so on. They both choked, they missed almost every shot.

I guess I have about an 80% chance of static brain shots at across the street distances, add any sort of real pressure, that will probably drop my chances of getting a brain shot in before I'm hit somewhere to absolute zero.

I really believe that almost anyone who plans on making special kill shots is going to fall back to the easiest task and drop to the default lowest level of training without even making a conscious decision. That would be a good thing, because all evidence points to a person's training and ability, basic capability, tanking under pressure.

People believe that they will rise to that challenge and meet the needs, but not a chance. This isn't about shooting skills, it is entirely about how one handles extreme pressure, and being able to perform. I don't believe that even a tiny fraction of civilians train for that.
 
Gator, I'm not meaning to say that pelvis shots are ineffective, they are going to hurt people. I do believe, just based on anatomy, that shots to the chest are going to be far more damaging than a round through the intestines.

In truth, there is a lot of space in the belly and pelvis that is far from disabling. I base my preference for chest vs pelvis based on nothing but measuring areas that I consider to be very fragile, and counting the square inches.

Photo public domain from WIKI commons
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You can look at the belly and torso, and count the areas that will cause a genuine possibility of rapid disability, measure that in square inches, look at the areas that just have little to no possibility of rapid disability.

Go to center, and examine from the eighth rib up, and what you will see is an almost solid mass of things that are going to bleed like a water balloon. Every place up there should, in normal circumstances, hit like a bat to the chest. Spine, heart, collar bones, lots of places there that will normally give him a pause.

That's just it. A much bigger target. Sure, the hip or other bones could put him down, but other than that and a couple arteries, there's nothing really capable of serious, disabling injury.


From thyblackman.com

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Where do you shoot?
 
There is an obvious and correct thought of trying other targets if center chest fails, and yes, when you have a drug or steroid induced cyborg on your hands and the usual stuff ain't working, you adapt to the situation and win.

I wish that I was better at working under pressure, I don't know if I'd be able to change off.

My thoughts are that pelvis or shoulder come next and head shot would be that absolute last chance.
 
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