Shoot at the pelvis to stop an attack?

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I'm not an expert on this,I could be wrong.And I'm too lazy,right at the moment,to drag out my Gray"s Anatomy.
But I don't think its true the pelvis is not a "stopping" target.Having said that,I don't question shooting center of mass in most cases,or high torso.
But if the pelvic zone is the target you have,take it.Like if your arms are pinned but you clear your holster or? any situation that occurs.

Have you ever "hip shot" a 12 ga by resting the gun butt approximately below your appendix? Not more than once!!

Suppose you pick as an aim point the location of the femoral pulse checking point.I think its called the "femoral sinus" The femoral artery is there,of course.Also the femoral nerve.Handgun temporary cavitation may not rip the tissue,but it does impact .I'm thinking neural control of the leg is lost,at least temporarily.If you are standing on two feet,you hit the floor.Maybe with a femoral bleed.If I'm on the floor and all I have to shoot at is the ankle of an active shooter,..If I shoot he may fall down.Then I have a head shot.
I know from experience the trochanter area,the ball on the femur,where it fits in the pelvis,that area is tough to ignore when hurt.That would be a good hit.
With reasonable penetration,the sciatic nerve is another pevic target.That will kill the leg.I have felt what seemed like a lightning bolt through mine,without being shot.If you are a little high,you get kidney.Rex Applegate suggested the Farbairn to the kidney as instantly debilitating.

The sacrum/illium area has a lot of major nerves,the "cauda equine" I think.And bone impact transmits to the spine. The abdominal aorta and vena cava (sp?) are major bleeders. Midline,from the tailbone up you will have neural impact,along with ortho damage.

I have not been in a gunfight or near a gunshot victim,but the novel/Hollywood story is "gutshot" people suffer terribly.I have been punched.

I'm not suggesting "I'm trendy and cool,I do pelvic shots". But it would seem to me,if you can get a pelvic hit 1/2 second before you can acquire another zone,or belly to belly as you clear leather,pull the trigger on the way to the torso or head shot.

There is a lot of debilitating anatomy in the pelvic area.
 
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Perhaps someone with some medical knowledge can clarify ---talking about a kidney punch ,or shot to the kidney .The kidney is basically a filter but will a punch to the adjoining adrenal gland [ major hormone producer ] do the real
damage???
 
Okay this isn't scientific in the least and comes from no studies of any kind but here goes anyways. Have any studies been done regarding shots right to the groin? Specifically to the male genitalia? I am sure my question will be laughed at, or scoffed at, but I am seriously wondering about the psychological impact of getting shot right in the (fill in your own graphic term).

YES, I am being 100% serious.
 
I can see two very different psychological reaction to being shot in the genitalia. One might react with a protective or amazed view and crumple to the ground while another would be filled with rage and kill you.
Either way I would rather take a head shot and put an end to the threat.
 
I have never heard anyone but Ayoob make this recommendation. Have any of you heard of this in your training or research?
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I've trained law enforcement agencies in judgmental use of force and gunfighting tactics for almost 20 years. I've always taught that the pelvic girdle is the preferred aiming point for a number of reasons: (1) It's truly the center of mass on your opponent. In combat you tend to shoot high, and a high hit aimed at the pelvic girdle will hit the center of the chest. A high round aimed at the center of the chest may go over the opponent's head. (2) The pelvic girdle contains large bones, which will maximize the energy transfer over a through-and-through wound. (3) The pelvic girdle is much larger than the head, and moves less than the head and upper thorax. (4) The pelvic girdle is the natural hinge point of the body, so an impact there is more likely to literally knock your opponent off of his or her feet. (Have a friend punch you in the center of the chest fairly hard. Now have him punch you in the groin with the same force. Any questions?) (5) A hit in the pelvic girdle is MORE likely to stop the threat and LESS likely to be fatal than a hit in the upper chest.

Mas is correct in his teachings, IMHO. :cool:
 
Okay this isn't scientific in the least and comes from no studies of any kind but here goes anyways. Have any studies been done regarding shots right to the groin? Specifically to the male genitalia? I am sure my question will be laughed at, or scoffed at, but I am seriously wondering about the psychological impact of getting shot right in the (fill in your own graphic term).
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I assume you are asking about aiming for the crotch with the genitals the intended target,and you assure me you are serious.
Given the only justification for an SD shoot is being in the immediate threat of death or great bodily injury,and given that seldom includes stationary targets...
I think the judge,jury and prosecutor might tend to be skeptical.

I'm seeing a movie scene where you pull the gun,the talisman of CONTROL,and the victim raises his hands,cowering,begging for mercy.You come up with some clever line like Eastwood and blow his dingleberries off for the sake of justice.
I think something like that is what the prosecutor might envision.

If you are really good enough to swing up a 9mm and whack the suspended anatomy,why not choose the medulla? Just asking.
 
First of all my question was a serious question in a self defense scenario, not some screwed up revenge scenario from a movie. Secondly. I wasn't at all suggesting that it replace a COM or head shot. More likely some of you are suggesting a follow up shot to the pelvis and I was simply wondering if a follow up shot to the nads might be more psychologically devastating.

I am curious though, how many of you experts have ever actually shot someone in the pelvis? Or seen someone that took a shot to the groin?
 
This discussion goes to something that has me at odds with the current fashion of training (i.e. shoot 'em to the ground.) If you shoot someone center-mass and they show no reaction to being shot 2-3 times, why keep shooting at the same place? Having three different areas to shoot gives you effective options.
 
Mas is correct in his teachings, IMHO.
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I concur and the pelvic shot is the follow up per Mas after the COM shots fail to stop or slow down the attack. The pelvic shot is made to try and immobilize the attacker, stopping his movement.:cool:
 
Had an instructor that taught :
First shot to the pelvis, it stops the bad guy
Immediate second shot , recoil brings the muzzle up in line with the chest or head. Terminal illness results.

That was his double tap.

Never got a chance to use it

AFS
 
Perhaps someone with some medical knowledge can clarify ---talking about a kidney punch ,or shot to the kidney .The kidney is basically a filter but will a punch to the adjoining adrenal gland [ major hormone producer ] do the real damage???
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The kidney are higher than the pelvis area we are talking about in this thread, Mete. The right kidney is, in most people, a shade higher than the left, and usually tucks up under the last rib or two a wee bit. The left usually is less covered by the ribs. The filtering capability is pretty advanced; the kidneys filter first, then reabsorb various materials and selectively excrete others, thus adjusting the excreted material in a very complex manner. They also play a very important role in regulating blood pressure. They receive a very substantial portion of the cardiac output, on the order of 25%, and have sensitive blood pressure sensors which trigger not only local constriction or relaxation of blood vessels, but the release of hormones that act throughout the body to regulate pressures.

The point of this screed is that both the blood supply and the nerve supply to the kidneys is pretty substantial. The adrenals, on the other hand, are fairly small, like almond sized or so, and although they have both nerve and blood supplies, neither is outsized for the size of the tissue. Their main on effect on the body is the hormones they put into the bloodstream: epinephrine (adrenaline) and the cortisone group of steroid hormones.

The effect of a punch or shot to the kidneys is much more likely to be due to the kidneys, back, and ribs, than to the adrenal glands. You could think of it as imitating a kidney stone in a very rough way, in that it would stimulate a lot of the same pain receptors.
 
A buddy of mine was shot in the pelvis with a 38 wadcutter. He then shot the BG 6 times with his 357 COM, reloaded, sat down putting pressure on the wound and waiting for the Calvary (me). The bullet penetrated about an inch to the bone and stopped. No pelvis shots for me, high chest, head.
 
Nanuk

Good thing your beat partner was hit with a wad cutter. Even a simple factory 158 gr. round nose lead round may have been a different story.
Bottom line, that pelvic girdle get's busted and even the Jolly Green Giant is going to tip over.
 
Good thing your beat partner was hit with a wad cutter.
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No kidding. I shoot wadcutters for target practice all the time. They can be really wimpy. At least the Winchesters that I shoot are.
 
Good thing your beat partner was hit with a wad cutter. Even a simple factory 158 gr. round nose lead round may have been a different story.
Bottom line, that pelvic girdle get's busted and even the Jolly Green Giant is going to tip over.
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Pelvis is not easy to break by shooting. A guy I worked with in El Paso shot a glue head in the butt cheek with a 185 grain 45 ACP Federal JHP that exited thru the frontal area of the pelvis. The guy ran, swam crawled back to Mexico, flipped him off and lived to sue.

That is a very, very inconsistent place to shoot someone. This guy was maybe 5'3" 120 lbs.
 
No kidding. I shoot wadcutters for target practice all the time. They can be really wimpy. At least the Winchesters that I shoot are.
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And every few weeks somebody proclaims them to be the best SD rounds one can find. I have seen too many people shot with them to ever support that opinion. The hardcast Buffalo Bore DEWC is a different story, it carry's a lot more velocity. If I was going to recommend anything for a pelvis shot it would be a 44 or 45 hardcast DEWC at a moderate velocity.
 
Nanuk

You're right of course. I guess I wasn't thinking about the "big picture". My poor brain was thinking about shots facing the bad guy head on . Like the old stand-by 2 to the chest 1 to the head. I wasn't thinking about shooting the bad guy thru the hams while he was facing away to try to break the pelvis.
Must be from my limited deer hunting experience. Never tried to shoot a buck in the hams to get a heart shot either.
 
Dang, with wad cutters!

Nanuk:
This is neat. Seldom have I ever talked to anybody, short of a coroner, that has seen very many humans shot. Excluding military of course.
And every few weeks somebody proclaims them to be the best SD rounds one can find. I have seen too many people shot with them to ever support that opinion
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Where in the world have you seen "too many people" shot with wad cutters?
This could be some good documentation for those internet killers that keep recommending 148 gr soft lead wad cutters loaded backwards with gas checks for self defense.
Like you said about Buffalo hard cast. I prefer a Keith type hard cast semi wad cutter in any revolver from .38 Special to .44 mag.
 
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