Serious Revolver Lust...
- Thread starter Tamara
- Start date
44mag@ucnsb.net
New member
Moribund huh? As this gentleman cleary stated, he does not shoot the .44 special or apparently know the status of this great round in today's world. While he has suggested that the .44 special is near death, even obsolete, and that nobody supports this round in the ammunition industry. I would suggest that given the fact that there are more loadings and manufacturers making .44 special ammuntion today than ever before, that this cartridge is far from moribund. Take a minute and go online, you will find everything from cowboy loads to personal protection to heavy loaded hunting loads. All of these are commercially produced. As for handloading, it is by far one of the most accurate and enjoy cartridges to load. Spend a little time reading Elmer Keith, or more recently John Taffin on these subjects and this caliber. I would also point out that Elmer Keith's .44 Special load of 250 grain bullet at 1200fps produces 800 ft lbs of energy... this load is comfortable to shoot in my model 24, and as the model 21 is a "modern" copy of that, I would say that it should perform well in that as well. Not that you really need this much punch, but it definately has the potential to speak with mounds of authority.
A quick internet search discovered the following loads for the .44 special, far from a lack of support I think...
ProLoad's 200 gr. Gold Dot load going 900 fps
Winchester's 200 gr. Silvertip going 900 fps
Federal's 200 gr. SWC going 900 fps
Speer's 200 gr Gold Dot load going 875 fps
Georgia Arm's 200 gr. Gold Dot load going 850 fps
Cor-Bon's 165 gr. JHP going 1150fps
Buffalo Bore's 180 gr. JHP going 1150fps
Buffalo Bore's 255 gr. Keith style SWC going 1150fps
Black Hills Keith load 250 gr. going 900fps
Glaser Safety Slug 135 gr. going 1350fps
Master Cartridge Corp. 240G grain JHP going 900fps
Winchester's 246 gr. LRN going 850fps
Winchester's 225 gr. LFP going 750fps
PMC Cowboy 240 gr. LFP going 750fps
Magtech 240 gr. LFP going 750fps
Ultramax Cowboy 200 gr. LRN going 700fps
Hornady Custom 180 gr. LRN going 800fps
3-D Ammo by Impact Arms 180 gr. JHP going 900fps
3-D Ammo by Impact Arms 200 gr. LRN going 750fps
Bullseye Ammunition 200 gr. LRN going 850fps
Magsafe Ammo +P Defender 92 gr. going 1,620fps
Magsafe Ammo SWAT (Urban Warfare) 94 gr. going 1,500fps
Conley Precision Cartridge 210 gr. LFP going 700fps
* All velocities are published, I have not verified them personally.
Easy there, .44mag! 
I don't think Denis' intent was to slag the .44 special round. I'm sure he's well aware of the round's potential, not to mention what's been written about it. Mr. Pris is an extremely knowlegeable, kind and agreeable fellow, and we're lucky to have a writer of his caliber around.
And you look like you'll bring quite a contribution to the forum as well.
A belated "welcome aboard" from me.
I don't think Denis' intent was to slag the .44 special round. I'm sure he's well aware of the round's potential, not to mention what's been written about it. Mr. Pris is an extremely knowlegeable, kind and agreeable fellow, and we're lucky to have a writer of his caliber around. And you look like you'll bring quite a contribution to the forum as well.
A belated "welcome aboard" from me.Horrified is probably pretty close to how I felt when we got to looking them over as they came in.
I was just now digging around in the basement for some more hand-filling grips to stick on the 1955 K38 I traded into about three weeks ago, and admiring the old critter again. I know times change, manufacturing costs keep going up, and makers have to deal with them, but there's no comparison between this 50-year-old Target Masterpiece and either of the two 21s I've had here.
I know- nobody makes anything like they used to, and Colt has had its share of QC issues in recent years, too. But, Colt seems to be on the rebound in quality based on what I've seen lately (at least in 1911s), while there were obvious shortcuts taken in getting my two 21 samples out the door.
44 Mag,
I knew no matter how I worded that part about the .44 Special somebody would have to jump on it.
It is a great round WHEN LOADED ADEQUATELY. I did not say "nobody supports it". It is not supported AS WELL as the .45 ACP, for instance, in what I would call serious defensive loads from the major ammo makers. Or as well as the .357, 9mm, or .40 S&W. You can find a number of loads, yes, many of which are either quite expensive, made by "fringe" companies not widely available at most ammo outlets, or the old 246 grain round lead equivalent that's fairly inefficient. Don't key on the term "fringe" companies, I'm not questioning their products or quality. I'm very well aware of what it can be & do when handloaded up to its potential in a good gun.
I can walk into just about any gunshop and find half a dozen effective .357 loads, 9mm loads, .45 ACP loads, and so on. Not the case in my area with the .44 Special. Dedicated though its fans may be, and again I am NOT knocking you, there haven't been enough .44 Specialers willing to spend the money to keep the caliber in regular firearms production for many years now.
I have read Keith & Taffin & Skelton & others; I know what the caliber can be. I've talked to Black Hills Ammo about their TR Special load, they're quite proud of the penetration they discovered in developing it that surprised even them, and they should be. But- it's my understanding that they will not be producing that load indefinitely.
I've been set up for the calibers I use in handguns for over 30 years. I am not averse to trying something new & occasionally do in the line of work I'm in. I've dabbled with .44-40 & .44 Russian for projects, and those necessitated new dies & so on, but those projects were done with currently made or offered guns in a certain context. I may get around to reloading for my .44 Magnum Redhawk one of these days, I do have the dies, but for right now I'll carry the very expensive Garrett Hammerheads in it, since it won't be fired much and it's a special purpose gun. There are no .44 Special revolvers offered at the moment that I see a need to work with, either professionally or personally. The TR Special concept had sufficient interest in the basic format that I was willing to overlook the caliber and explore the gun. I mentioned the results. The .44 Special as a caliber otherwise offers ME no particular advantage over at least 30 other handguns I own in other calibers that have good defensive ammo readily and widely available , and I already have a fair amount of money tied up in dies, molds, components, leather, and so on for them. The fixed sight bigbore concept of the gun itself was what had the interest, and that died when I handled them.
You're missing the point. My statements were no attack on the caliber or those who like it.
And- quit calling me a gentleman. I ain't one.
Denis
I was just now digging around in the basement for some more hand-filling grips to stick on the 1955 K38 I traded into about three weeks ago, and admiring the old critter again. I know times change, manufacturing costs keep going up, and makers have to deal with them, but there's no comparison between this 50-year-old Target Masterpiece and either of the two 21s I've had here.
I know- nobody makes anything like they used to, and Colt has had its share of QC issues in recent years, too. But, Colt seems to be on the rebound in quality based on what I've seen lately (at least in 1911s), while there were obvious shortcuts taken in getting my two 21 samples out the door.
44 Mag,
I knew no matter how I worded that part about the .44 Special somebody would have to jump on it.
It is a great round WHEN LOADED ADEQUATELY. I did not say "nobody supports it". It is not supported AS WELL as the .45 ACP, for instance, in what I would call serious defensive loads from the major ammo makers. Or as well as the .357, 9mm, or .40 S&W. You can find a number of loads, yes, many of which are either quite expensive, made by "fringe" companies not widely available at most ammo outlets, or the old 246 grain round lead equivalent that's fairly inefficient. Don't key on the term "fringe" companies, I'm not questioning their products or quality. I'm very well aware of what it can be & do when handloaded up to its potential in a good gun.
I can walk into just about any gunshop and find half a dozen effective .357 loads, 9mm loads, .45 ACP loads, and so on. Not the case in my area with the .44 Special. Dedicated though its fans may be, and again I am NOT knocking you, there haven't been enough .44 Specialers willing to spend the money to keep the caliber in regular firearms production for many years now.
I have read Keith & Taffin & Skelton & others; I know what the caliber can be. I've talked to Black Hills Ammo about their TR Special load, they're quite proud of the penetration they discovered in developing it that surprised even them, and they should be. But- it's my understanding that they will not be producing that load indefinitely.
I've been set up for the calibers I use in handguns for over 30 years. I am not averse to trying something new & occasionally do in the line of work I'm in. I've dabbled with .44-40 & .44 Russian for projects, and those necessitated new dies & so on, but those projects were done with currently made or offered guns in a certain context. I may get around to reloading for my .44 Magnum Redhawk one of these days, I do have the dies, but for right now I'll carry the very expensive Garrett Hammerheads in it, since it won't be fired much and it's a special purpose gun. There are no .44 Special revolvers offered at the moment that I see a need to work with, either professionally or personally. The TR Special concept had sufficient interest in the basic format that I was willing to overlook the caliber and explore the gun. I mentioned the results. The .44 Special as a caliber otherwise offers ME no particular advantage over at least 30 other handguns I own in other calibers that have good defensive ammo readily and widely available , and I already have a fair amount of money tied up in dies, molds, components, leather, and so on for them. The fixed sight bigbore concept of the gun itself was what had the interest, and that died when I handled them.
You're missing the point. My statements were no attack on the caliber or those who like it.
And- quit calling me a gentleman. I ain't one.
Denis
General comment
Just a general comment,
I'm relatively tradtional but I'd Call a 200 GR bullet pushing a 1000 FPS pretty serious and effective. Let me remind you that the respected .45 ACP has been praised for precisely these ballistics for decades.
____________________________
An old west lawman once said when asked why he carried a .45, "because they don't make a .46"
Just a general comment,
I'm relatively tradtional but I'd Call a 200 GR bullet pushing a 1000 FPS pretty serious and effective. Let me remind you that the respected .45 ACP has been praised for precisely these ballistics for decades.
____________________________
An old west lawman once said when asked why he carried a .45, "because they don't make a .46"
trapshooter
Moderator
I'm just curious as to whether Tam's bank account is now lighter by several hundred clams, (even presuming a reasonable employee discount), and what she thinks about her new revolver.
44mag@ucnsb.net
New member
To Denis and his supporters,
My comments are not made as an attack on anyone either. I will seldom take things personally on a forum, a forum is only words. You will find as a person posting to any forum that I am more interested in making sure the facts are pointed out and that those people who are unknowledgable about a particular subject are not tainted by opinions or bad experiences. Everyone can have a bad experience, be that with a gun, a caliber, etc. I have always done my best to point out, with backup data, anything that seems a little off key and that doesn't "jive" with what I know to be true. Now that I have said that, allow me to pass some information along for those who are not so knowledgable about this caliber and it's history. And, this is not meant as a rebuttle to Denis, but as a general post to everyone in the thread.
I would completely agree that they .357, 9mm and .45 acp are more popular calibers than the .44 special, but let's kill this perception that the .44 Special is not availible at your local gun shop. As I work in a gun shop, I will tell you that most customers have no idea what is availible at their local gun shop. If the customer does not see an item, to them it is not availible. I can tell you that product purchases in a gun shop, are normally made by the owner based on what he "thinks" will sell. Many times we are surprised when a customer asks for a product, as soon as we order it in, others see it and tell us how they have been wanting that very item. So a regular shelf stock item comes to be. Our shop currently carries a .44 Special load from all major brands (Winchester, Speer, Federal, PMC, CCI, Hornady) as well as a few "fringe" companies like Corbon, Magsafe, and Glaser (which to many are leaders in the self defense cartridge category). I can also tell you that we currently have for sale 5 - .44 Special revolvers. Two Taurus snubbies, a Rossi 720 with adjustable sights, a Charter Arms Bulldog, and S&W 696 (Which I might add as a second to my collection). I can tell you that the majority of people who buy .44 Special ammunition from our store use it in their .44 Magnum revolvers. Which brings up my second point in this discussion. S&W really put the .44 Special on the back burner in the 50's, when they introduced the .44 Magnum. While they continued to make the .44 Special, it was "Magnum" time at S&W, both the salesman and the engineers were onboard to exploit America's "Magnum Craze". I would agree that from that time until recently, the .44 Special has not been produced as a specific caliber in wide range of guns, but there have been some. Partly because everyone that shoots a .44 Magnum can shoot a .44 Special in it, but mainly because of America's appetite for bigger and faster.
In the last decade the .44 Special has truly seen a large upsweep in commercial support. I have listed below guns currently chambered in this caliber or that have been discontinued in the last few years that are still available for a decent price.
Current Double Actions:
S&W 21
S&W 396
Taurus 445
Taurus 431
Charter Arms Bulldog
Discontinued Double Actions that are still available at a reasonable price:
S&W 624 (Similar to Mountain Gun in size and look)
S&W 296 (Airlite Frame DA Only)
S&W 696 (Small frame 5 shot)
Rossi 720 (Small frame 5 shot)
Current Single Actions:
Freedom Arms Model 97
Cimmaron Model "P"
Cimmaron Sherriff Model
Cimmaron "Thunderer" Model
Cimmaron Bisley Model
USFA Single Action Revolver
Uberti Bisley Model SAA
EMF 1873 SAA
Denis.. go to Bowen and get a remake done (See attached pics from their site).. It would be better money spent I think.. I am seriously thinking of taking the plunge.. by the way.. my two carry guns are a SW696 and a Taurus tracker 4 inch in .45 colt. So I am not completely .44 special biased.
Erich - thank you for the welcome. I hope I can make positive contributions to any discussion. If not, believe me, I will keep my mouth shut. : ) Enjoy your weekend.
My comments are not made as an attack on anyone either. I will seldom take things personally on a forum, a forum is only words. You will find as a person posting to any forum that I am more interested in making sure the facts are pointed out and that those people who are unknowledgable about a particular subject are not tainted by opinions or bad experiences. Everyone can have a bad experience, be that with a gun, a caliber, etc. I have always done my best to point out, with backup data, anything that seems a little off key and that doesn't "jive" with what I know to be true. Now that I have said that, allow me to pass some information along for those who are not so knowledgable about this caliber and it's history. And, this is not meant as a rebuttle to Denis, but as a general post to everyone in the thread.
I would completely agree that they .357, 9mm and .45 acp are more popular calibers than the .44 special, but let's kill this perception that the .44 Special is not availible at your local gun shop. As I work in a gun shop, I will tell you that most customers have no idea what is availible at their local gun shop. If the customer does not see an item, to them it is not availible. I can tell you that product purchases in a gun shop, are normally made by the owner based on what he "thinks" will sell. Many times we are surprised when a customer asks for a product, as soon as we order it in, others see it and tell us how they have been wanting that very item. So a regular shelf stock item comes to be. Our shop currently carries a .44 Special load from all major brands (Winchester, Speer, Federal, PMC, CCI, Hornady) as well as a few "fringe" companies like Corbon, Magsafe, and Glaser (which to many are leaders in the self defense cartridge category). I can also tell you that we currently have for sale 5 - .44 Special revolvers. Two Taurus snubbies, a Rossi 720 with adjustable sights, a Charter Arms Bulldog, and S&W 696 (Which I might add as a second to my collection). I can tell you that the majority of people who buy .44 Special ammunition from our store use it in their .44 Magnum revolvers. Which brings up my second point in this discussion. S&W really put the .44 Special on the back burner in the 50's, when they introduced the .44 Magnum. While they continued to make the .44 Special, it was "Magnum" time at S&W, both the salesman and the engineers were onboard to exploit America's "Magnum Craze". I would agree that from that time until recently, the .44 Special has not been produced as a specific caliber in wide range of guns, but there have been some. Partly because everyone that shoots a .44 Magnum can shoot a .44 Special in it, but mainly because of America's appetite for bigger and faster.
In the last decade the .44 Special has truly seen a large upsweep in commercial support. I have listed below guns currently chambered in this caliber or that have been discontinued in the last few years that are still available for a decent price.
Current Double Actions:
S&W 21
S&W 396
Taurus 445
Taurus 431
Charter Arms Bulldog
Discontinued Double Actions that are still available at a reasonable price:
S&W 624 (Similar to Mountain Gun in size and look)
S&W 296 (Airlite Frame DA Only)
S&W 696 (Small frame 5 shot)
Rossi 720 (Small frame 5 shot)
Current Single Actions:
Freedom Arms Model 97
Cimmaron Model "P"
Cimmaron Sherriff Model
Cimmaron "Thunderer" Model
Cimmaron Bisley Model
USFA Single Action Revolver
Uberti Bisley Model SAA
EMF 1873 SAA
Denis.. go to Bowen and get a remake done (See attached pics from their site).. It would be better money spent I think.. I am seriously thinking of taking the plunge.. by the way.. my two carry guns are a SW696 and a Taurus tracker 4 inch in .45 colt. So I am not completely .44 special biased.
Erich - thank you for the welcome. I hope I can make positive contributions to any discussion. If not, believe me, I will keep my mouth shut. : ) Enjoy your weekend.
Attachments
I've got bit by revolver lust, too, today. I've been wanting a "cowboy gun" and today I actually picked up and looked at a couple, mostly Vaqueros. I've looked at the Vaquero before, but bever the Bisley Vaquero.
I love it. I must have two. I must have my tax return! It fits perfectly in my hand, and after the salesman showed me a couple of techniques for handling them, I fell in love.
Someday, hopefully soon. 
I love it. I must have two. I must have my tax return! It fits perfectly in my hand, and after the salesman showed me a couple of techniques for handling them, I fell in love.
Someday, hopefully soon.
Erich,
Sorry, just occurred to me I was remiss in not thanking you for your kind words.
Therefor: thank you.
James,
Better make it sooner than later, all old model Vaqueros are out of production, Ruger has no plans to bring out a New Vaquero in Bisley form as of about three weeks ago. Hock something & get your Bisleys before they dry up.
Good luck.
Denis
Sorry, just occurred to me I was remiss in not thanking you for your kind words.
Therefor: thank you.
James,
Better make it sooner than later, all old model Vaqueros are out of production, Ruger has no plans to bring out a New Vaquero in Bisley form as of about three weeks ago. Hock something & get your Bisleys before they dry up.
Good luck.
Denis
Samual2001,your comment on the bottom said that 9mm's are for panseys and women.In 1981 a man entered the state police office at night and shot the desk clerk with a 45acp the bullet hit her head and went around the skull and exited the back of her head and she lived,the shooter was shot once with a 9mm in the chest and died before medics arrived.I take your comment with severe predudice.I am a man that folks go out of there way not get me mad,so I'm far from a pansey.As for 44 special,buy a 44 mag and have the best of both worlds.Drop-Shot
Samual2001,the comment about the 9mm being for pansies?I disagree with severe predudice.I own several 45lc and 45acp's and while the 9mm needs more accurate shooting it is by no means a pansies gun.I'm a guy folks try not to get mad and I carry a 9mm and am proud of it,I'm no pansies.Drop-Shot
Marko Kloos
Inactive
9mm Luger/Parabellum has probably killed more people than all the other pistol calibers combined.
Oh, and that TR Model 21 is a pretty awesome-looking piece. I was drooling all over it when they showed it to me at the shop. The TR logo is a bit flashy, but that's not a deal breaker.
Oh, and that TR Model 21 is a pretty awesome-looking piece. I was drooling all over it when they showed it to me at the shop. The TR logo is a bit flashy, but that's not a deal breaker.
Dusty Miller
New member
When the dust is fly'n is the best time to get another one. That way the Mrs. will most likely never know the second one got slipped in!! 
lawandorder
Inactive
Love those 44 spls.
Tamara I was wanting one of the 21-4s when I got real lucky and got a call from a friend that led me to a pre 21 4 inch in great shape. I still may be tempted to buy the new version in spite of the lawyer stuff on it, ..if I ever see one in person.I own several vintage S&W 44 specials and love to shoot them. Carry my 696 no dash some of the time.Hope you enjoy it if you decide to buy it1 Give us your report on it if you do.............
Tamara I was wanting one of the 21-4s when I got real lucky and got a call from a friend that led me to a pre 21 4 inch in great shape. I still may be tempted to buy the new version in spite of the lawyer stuff on it, ..if I ever see one in person.I own several vintage S&W 44 specials and love to shoot them. Carry my 696 no dash some of the time.Hope you enjoy it if you decide to buy it1 Give us your report on it if you do.............
44mag@ucnsb.net
New member
I would ask that everyone please bear with this post. I don't discuss thread topics in email, so I am posting this email and my response to it. I hope I do not offend anyone, I just believe that such things should be discussed openly. Thank you.
Denis,
The supporters comment was made because I have been sent several emails from people and posted in the room in regards to disagreeing with you. I understand that you are an agreeable individual and knowledgable. I also take into account that I have never met anyone who knows everything, and thus upon reading your posts I felt a need to respond.
I believe your original post stated that you would not own a gun in such a moribund caliber. Being an educated man, I know that moribund is just a polite way of saying obsolete. That specific comment seems quite contrary to your comments in the email above that state you were not trying to comment on the caliber, but the gun itself. Why would you even need to discuss the caliber at all, let alone make what could be viewed by someone as a derogitory comment about it? Just curious. As much as you seem to think they are personal, my posts are quite the contrary. I feel a need to correct what I see as an incorrect remark on a forum. You are correct, many people come to forums to get information. We can argue all day about what we "think" or what is our "opinion". You will find that I seldom argue over what I think is good or bad, versus what I can prove with data. You said there was very little support for the .44 Special in ammunition. Then you stated that there were not enough people buying the caliber to keep guns in regular production for many years. These are opinionated statements, not factual and I have posted the data to disprove them. I did not post this data to "correct" you, I posted it because as "posters" on any forum, we should feel responsible to post "correct" information, not opinions. Of course an opinion works well for questions like, how did it look, how does it shoot.
In response to your comment that I have "jacked" the thread way off course, I would tell you that it went of course when you felt a need to comment on the caliber, stating that it was moribund. If you had just commented on the quality of the guns themselves, I believe that we would not be having this discussion.
I would also point out that I was trying to be friendly in my last post by sending you some information regarding the old .45 Colt Heavy duty that Bowen is doing. You commented that you would like to see something similar to the M21 with better quality in .45 colt. I keep quite a stable of calibers at my disposal, which is exactly why I don't take any of this personally. As a poster on a forum, I have been corrected more than once, I have always just taken it in stride and learned from it. Good luck.
Thank you for an enjoyable morning.
.44mag
Denis,
The supporters comment was made because I have been sent several emails from people and posted in the room in regards to disagreeing with you. I understand that you are an agreeable individual and knowledgable. I also take into account that I have never met anyone who knows everything, and thus upon reading your posts I felt a need to respond.
I believe your original post stated that you would not own a gun in such a moribund caliber. Being an educated man, I know that moribund is just a polite way of saying obsolete. That specific comment seems quite contrary to your comments in the email above that state you were not trying to comment on the caliber, but the gun itself. Why would you even need to discuss the caliber at all, let alone make what could be viewed by someone as a derogitory comment about it? Just curious. As much as you seem to think they are personal, my posts are quite the contrary. I feel a need to correct what I see as an incorrect remark on a forum. You are correct, many people come to forums to get information. We can argue all day about what we "think" or what is our "opinion". You will find that I seldom argue over what I think is good or bad, versus what I can prove with data. You said there was very little support for the .44 Special in ammunition. Then you stated that there were not enough people buying the caliber to keep guns in regular production for many years. These are opinionated statements, not factual and I have posted the data to disprove them. I did not post this data to "correct" you, I posted it because as "posters" on any forum, we should feel responsible to post "correct" information, not opinions. Of course an opinion works well for questions like, how did it look, how does it shoot.
In response to your comment that I have "jacked" the thread way off course, I would tell you that it went of course when you felt a need to comment on the caliber, stating that it was moribund. If you had just commented on the quality of the guns themselves, I believe that we would not be having this discussion.
I would also point out that I was trying to be friendly in my last post by sending you some information regarding the old .45 Colt Heavy duty that Bowen is doing. You commented that you would like to see something similar to the M21 with better quality in .45 colt. I keep quite a stable of calibers at my disposal, which is exactly why I don't take any of this personally. As a poster on a forum, I have been corrected more than once, I have always just taken it in stride and learned from it. Good luck.
Thank you for an enjoyable morning.
.44mag