Self Defense article

I was going to post something about self defense and women but it is obvious that we are already WAY over our limit of martial arts experts on this thread.

The use of 'NEVER ' and ' ALWAYS ' are good indicators of a person's real life experience in the MA and in SD situations....that's all I got to say about this topic.
 
Pax, et. al., have it nailed.

Instead of "what if" speculation, let's look to documented fact. Pax is referring to Lindell-based techniques, which began more than 30 years ago at the Kansas City Regional Police Academy under Jim Lindell, head of defensive tactics training there at that time. Jim now runs the National Law Enforcement Training Center in KC.

With the broad national and international adoption of Lindell-based training by law enforcement, there has been a substantial volume of feedback "from the street." Officers trained for only a few hours, with no more than four hours annual refresher if that, have been "making it work" for three decades. It has been estimated that Lindell's disarming, and particularly his corollary handgun retention, methods have saved as many cops as concealed body armor.

Skeptics need to Google NLETC and Lindell and do a bit of research.
 
Are you suggesting that what works for a professional LEO would work for a young woman who has never been in a violent situation in her life?

Nice people have no idea just how brutal street violence gets, nor how quickly it gets that way. If someone has already pulled a firearm out there is a pretty good chance they are not averse to violence.

Teaching people how to escape and evade criminals is a good thing, teaching them to risk their life by trying to disarm someone with a gun is a bad thing.
 
What I'm suggesting is that what works for LEOs who face violent criminals constantly tends to work for private citizens who face the same criminals less frequently.

Justme, are YOU suggesting that a lady in this situation try to outrun a bullet instead?
 
I am suggesting that people become more aware of their surroundings and recognize their fear as a good thing and pay attention to it. I am suggesting that when people are faced with an armed aggressor they should do everything in their power not to escalate the situation. And yes, I am suggesting that people who are not used to violent situations are ill equiped to deal with violence.

Finally, I think that young upper-middle class suburban woman have a totally misplaces sense of their own abilities. They have been brainwashed by the PC crowd to believe that they are up to any challenge, apparantly including believing that they could disarm a criminal if they just had a bit of training.

This is a foolish debate, I am done.
 
justme,

You do know who Mas Ayoob is, right?







Self defense is all about preparation and taking the proper steps to ensure survival. Sometimes it involves evasion/ escape and sometimes it involves close quarters conflict. Its all about increasing your odds of survival.

If a newbie rookie LEO can do it with minimal initial training and infrequent refresher courses then a normal citizen with the time and dedication can meet or exceed the same level of compentancy in a SD class or a MA school.

I have a bit of experience in the matter of MA SD and I can have young college girls dropping 200 pound guys in a hour of training, if they keep it up they can keep the skill, or even improve on it.

Just my .02 cents, not that you really needed ANOTHER MA ' expert ' opinion...LOL
 
G'morning, all.

Massad Ayoob said:
Officers trained for only a few hours, with no more than four hours annual refresher if that, have been "making it work" for three decades. It has been estimated that Lindell's disarming, and particularly his corollary handgun retention, methods have saved as many cops as concealed body armor.
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At the risk of stating the obvious, some of the cops Mas refers to here were females. Young, white, upper-middle class, suburban females, even.

pax

PS Justme ~ that is the real life Ayoob. No foolin'. Sometimes you meet the most surprising people online.
 
Mas Ayoob, on post #52, on a forum for which he does not get paid? While he makes a living writing and posting elsewhere?

I think it possible that Ayoob would post here. I think it impossible that he would use his real name. Not least of all because his credibility is often challenged in court cases and he couldn't afford to risk something being taken out of context and used to impeach him.

Finally, I can think of no human being on the planet who cares less what I think than Mas Ayoob does.
 
Justme ~

Those are all great arguments, especially the last one.

But like most every other argument you've made in this thread, they're wrong.

pax
 
Mas Ayoob, on post #52, on a forum for which he does not get paid? While he makes a living writing and posting elsewhere?

I think it possible that Ayoob would post here. I think it impossible that he would use his real name. Not least of all because his credibility is often challenged in court cases and he couldn't afford to risk something being taken out of context and used to impeach him.

Finally, I can think of no human being on the planet who cares less what I think than Mas Ayoob does.
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Mas posts on a lot of forums, as do many other instructors who have been and will be experts. It's no different than a magazine article, which are often taken out of context any way. The key, though, is that these gentlemen and ladies are difficult to impeach because 1) they have the ability to explain the context and 2) what they say on the 'net is effectively the same thing as what they say in testimony and in their articles.
 
Justme, hands away from the keyboard a moment, and THINK.

Do you really think the mods here would allow someone else to impersonate Massad Ayoob by having a username that suggests that it's him?

Think really hard about that. Take a few minutes.

And yeah, you do see people you've "heard about" on forums. Adam Baldwin (Jayne from Firefly) is on a few forums as himself, where he's argued with leftists and made them look pretty foolish. (one called him a "neanderthal") :D ...he's a staunch conservative and quite well-spoken as well.
 
It's funny - how many posts start with some guy, saying "I'm 6'6" and 250 and most folks don't mess with me". Are they a touch overconfident as compared to a little guy with a knife?

Excellent point.



Nobody is going to reliably disarm me because I will not draw a weapon until I have made up my mind to use it

What makes you think you’ll be able to get to it in time? What makes you think you’ll be able to draw it while someone is punching/pushing/pulling you?



I don't believe a 250lb man could learn enough to be effective at disarming someone in such a situation either

Suppose someone has a gun to my head, I step out of the way while grabbing his gun, and then give him a nice kick to his shin/ankle, do you think he’ll let go of the gun and cease thinking about doing me harm? If that does happen would it be considered a disarm?



If its so effective then let's disarm the police and just teach them unarmed martial arts

Guns are tools, but not a replacement for skill. If one has skill and also has a gun they have capabilities the skilled guy without the gun doesn’t have. Also, many people out there foolishly equate the gun with power, and if they see that the cop has a gun they’ll be more likely to behave.
 
What part of the term reliably do you not understand? Virtually anyone can be disarmed in certain circumstances, reliability is a whole different matter. This is a good thing since if a person could be reliably disarmed a firearm would be worthless.

Trying to disarm an aggressor does several things, some good some bad. The bad outweighs the good. The good is that you give yourself a tiny chance of success, the bad is that you increase your chance of getting shoot a whole order of magnitude. It's simply not a good risk reward move.

The only scenario where disarming someone comes into play is when they have pulled a gun on you but haven't pulled the trigger yet. The number one thing we should be teaching people is how to prevent that person from pulling the trigger. Assaulting the gun holder is not the best way to prevent them from pulling the trigger. The real Mas Ayoob knows this.
 
Virtually anyone can be disarmed in certain circumstances, reliability is a whole different matter. This is a good thing since if a person could be reliably disarmed a firearm would be worthless

So you're saying that you don't want "disarms" to work because that would nullify the power you think you have because of your gun?
 
Justme said:
What part of the term reliably do you not understand? Virtually anyone can be disarmed in certain circumstances, reliability is a whole different matter. This is a good thing since if a person could be reliably disarmed a firearm would be worthless.
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If it's a choice between maybe getting a gun away from an assailant, or definitely getting killed, I would take the maybe. :)

Since I decided that I'd gamble on the maybe, I then sought out training to make the maybe more possible.

Maybe becomes a lot more likely with Lindell-based training, to the point where it is almost certainly.

It does not turn the maybe into a definitely.

Justme said:
Trying to disarm an aggressor does several things, some good some bad. The bad outweighs the good. The good is that you give yourself a tiny chance of success, the bad is that you increase your chance of getting shoot a whole order of magnitude. It's simply not a good risk reward move.
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Any reputable instructor teaches that the only reason you'd ever try a gun grab is if you are definitely going to get killed or worse if you don't Do Something Right Now.

Justme said:
The only scenario where disarming someone comes into play is when they have pulled a gun on you but haven't pulled the trigger yet.
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False, actually. In Ayoob's LFI-2 class, for example, students learn disarms that begin to come into play before the bad guy has even cleared leather. And they learn disarms as the last chance to recover from a failed retention.

Justme said:
The number one thing we should be teaching people is how to prevent that person from pulling the trigger. Assaulting the gun holder is not the best way to prevent them from pulling the trigger. The real Mas Ayoob knows this.
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What the real Mas Ayoob knows is what he teaches in his classes: that there are no guarantees, but if the choice is between definitely getting killed or maybe getting the gun away, there are skills you can learn to tip the odds of that maybe in your favor.

pax
 
The real Mas Ayoob knows this.
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Has it ever entered your mind that the "real Mas Ayoob" is known to some of the moderators, staff, and owner of this board? Has it dawned on you that someone posting with that name might, just might get vetted by the people who know Mas?
 
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