self defense ammo

[pinkerpv]

Overpenetration Study Results

Massad Ayoob has authored an article in the May 2010 issue of Combat Handguns (yes, its already out) concerning overpenetration of FMJ bullets. In the article he cites 25 cases where FMJ bullets and in at least a few cases JHPs passed thru the bad guys. In several of these cases innocents were wounded and in one case killed. Of course law suits ensued and ended in various settlements and payouts.

These cases directly led to numerous LE organizations discontinuing use of FMJ bullets in favor of JHPs. And in the cases involving JHPs that overpenetrated, the organizations switched to lighter grain bullets. The point here is to remember rule 4 and always know what is behind your target. Also using bullets that have been proven to be effective, ie certain manufacture's JHPs, but are not likely to overpenetrate will help keep innocents from becoming victims.

A few dollars more for JHPs may prove very inexpensive later.

 

[bikerbill]

wooo hate to argue with clint smith, but I carry Golden Sabers in the Kimber UCII that I carry during the colder months ... given the choice -- and after assuring that they feed properly in my gun -- I'd rather have a hollowpoint than ball ammo any day of the week ... my gun, my choice ...

 

[iznek]

SD Ammo

Interesting reading all these posts. What about ammo for a 'short barrel' semi say 4 inches and shorter? In 9mm, as presently leaning toward that caliber for personal defense, does a heavier bullet affect performance and feed realiably? Or will a lighter bullet work better? And what I'm really confused about is: how do you personally "test for bullet expansion??" Do you take a magazine article at it's word or do you test for youself by, say, shooting at a phonebook like someone posted?

 

[Doc Intrepid]

"...And Doc Intrepid, your Clint Smith quote is 9 years old. There has been a lot of improvement of JHP bullet design in the last 9 years. And my 1911s feed commercial JHPs from reputable manufacturers just fine."

Fiddletown,

I do not dispute your contention that the quote I used is 9 years old; nor that significant improvement in projectile design has occurred since; nor that your 1911s feed commercial JHPs from reputable manufacturers just fine.

I'm sure you are correct on all accounts.

To the best of my knowledge, however, Clint still carries hardball.

He knows more than I do about the topic.

And he could use anything he wanted.

That was my only point.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

In my opinion, this is a must-read article on ammunition for self-defense:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

At the end of the day though, the training is way more important than the ammunition selection.

 

[jfrey]

My personal choice is Gold Dot in .45 and either Gold Dot or Critical Defense in 9mm. It may not matter, but it makes me feel better. I figure it is my gun and my life so I make the decisions.

 

[greyeyezz]

wooo hate to argue with clint smith, but I carry Golden Sabers in the Kimber UCII that I carry during the colder months ... given the choice -- and after assuring that they feed properly in my gun -- I'd rather have a hollowpoint than ball ammo any day of the week ... my gun, my choice ...

Clint Smith isn't your average shooter. He can probably shoot a smiley face CM so it doesn't matter what he loads up.

For me money isn't an issue when defending myself or loved ones. Couple hundred bucks in ammo is nothing when your life is on the line.

 

[FyredUp]

Why in the world would anyone own a 1911 that they intended to use for self defense that wouldn't reliably feed JHP rounds? My Springfield Loaded 1911A-1 feeds JHP rounds just as reliably as with FMJ rounds and if it didn't it wouldn't be my choice as a self defense pistol. It is that simple to me.

 

[jim n iowa]

Here in the land above OZ it gets cold in the winter, and the bad guys put on heavy coats. Your .380,9mm and up with jhp bullets may not have the put down power going center mass, up for head shots at close range? We buy jfp if available, we load same or hard cast swc bullets. You can defend your self, knock the wind out of the perp, or use penetrating bullets, that will take it out. Your call, be tried by 12 for defending your self, or carried by 6 for being politically correct. Ayoob has made statements that you may be liable for using handloads to defend yourself. There has never been a case in court decided against a person who used handloads to defend them selves and protect their property and family.
Jim

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Ayoob has made statements that you may be liable for using handloads to defend yourself. There has never been a case in court decided against a person who used handloads to defend them selves and protect their property and family.

This issue has been discussed extensively here. See --

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=365747

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=388901

As a lawyer, I consider the advice not to use handloads for self defense to be sound. And personally, I will not.

You are, of course, free to do as you like. It's not my problem.

 

[stickhauler]

Here in the land above OZ it gets cold in the winter, and the bad guys put on heavy coats. Your .380,9mm and up with jhp bullets may not have the put down power going center mass, up for head shots at close range? We buy jfp if available, we load same or hard cast swc bullets.

I think this is the same argument made by our troops in Korea who claimed their .30 caliber carbines were insufficient to penetrate heavy clothing, that BS has been dispelled. If penetration is so difficult in Iowa (I doubt they wear much heavier clothing there than they do here in Ohio) why not say you need a 500 Smith & Wesson magnum for wintertime protection?

 

[highvel]

Golden Sabers .45 +P 185gr for me.
Shot a small six point buck with one after he hung around a little too long, the results were impressive

 

[lambertsteeth]

Personally, in my everyday carry(compact 1911), I carry golden sabres. Just makes me feel better knowing I've done my due diligence.
However, there are thousands of LE (Europe, Central America) which carry nothing other than jhp. If you talk to those guys, it is not an issue for them. If you shoot a guy in the heart, lungs, or head, they are on their way out. Shoot him more than once, it takes less time for him to expire.
There have been times when my everyday gun was at the Smith for a checkup that I have carried a Sig 229. More than once I have carried the Sig with fmj ammo. I certainly did not worry about the little hole in the end of the bullet(or lack of a hole).
Big bullets make big holes, just jhp ammo makes a little bigger hole. Fmj is still gonna kill a guy.

 

[grillin16]

I agree

Shot placement (practice), proper ammunition (another vote for Gold Dot) and a Clean (!!!) reliable gun (speaking about Semi Auto) do make a difference.
The damage the hollow points cause is proven. I need my wounds to cause as much bleeding and possible fragmentation injuries to as many organs as possible. Too, at a minimum, knock the fight out of the lead recipient. Still, placement of the shot insures a quick end to a potential firefight, in which I, or others, could be injured or killed. There have been instances of FMJ head shots that were not instant kills. The right hollow point (one that almost always expands on impact with bone, skin, clothing, dryway etc. in the right manner..Gold Dot has proven to be the most reliable for my .40 cal applications) in my opinion could have altered this. If the bullet had fragmented it would have damaged many more parts of the brain, damaged the eyes and potentially severed vital nerves. More parts of the brain destroyed, less chance of any survival after impact. The same applies to the vital organs. Why just damage the spleen, when you could potentially damage the liver and kidneys too.
It is every gun owners responsibilty to study and know their firearm of choice (EDC, Hunting or Home Defense) and to at a minimum be able to hit whatever target they are using or could have to use it on. Some of the more expensive ammo will help in the amount of success (in damage) that bullet will have when it hits the target.

 

[R1 Racer]

Keep it Simple

A 230gr FMJ is going to put crimp in anyones afternoon. A JHP is going to ruin the whole evening. Find a defense round that runs 100% in your gun and buy a half case and stash it. Ball ammo is a distant 2nd but it will work.

Keep it simple there is no magical round. Use a reliable premium SD round and stay with it. Confidence & cheaper in the long run.

 

[markj]

Same old arguement, same old use JHP or you are nuts.

I dont buy into it.

I test my ammo on animals, large animals, we will have a cow die once in awhile so when we do we shoot the carcass with our ammo of choice. JHP bounce off them ribs almost every time. FMJ penetrate deeply.

Use what you want, I have tested mine out in a real life situation with a real carcass, no gel, no water jugs, real flesh and bone.

I agree with Clint. I also can buy twice as much ammo as the JHP guys.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I dont buy into it.,,,

You don't have to. But apparently pretty much every U. S. law enforcement agency has. They use JHP ammunition.

...I test my ammo on animals, large animals, we will have a cow die once in awhile so when we do we shoot the carcass...

There's a big difference between a 1000 pound (+/-) cow and a 150 to 300 pound human.

...I agree with Clint....

Clint Smith may recommend FMJ in .45 ACP. OTOH, many trainers, like Massad Ayoob recommend and carry JHPs.

 

[FyredUp]

I think it is obvious that in MOST situations a JHP will do far more tissue damage than an equivalent sized FMJ round.

Having said that, I would not feel under armed using either my 9mm or my .45ACP with FMJ rounds for home defense. Frankly, if it boils down to me having to put 8 rounds of FMJ .45ACP, or 15 rounds of FMJ 9mm into a bad guy and they keep coming I am gonna count on my running shoes to get me the hell out of there.

I have both FMJ and JHP on hand for both my 9mm and .45ACP. I tend to shoot the FMJ for taget practice and an occasional magazine of JHP to see if there is any difference in accuracy.

Of course, your opinion may vary. But as I said earlier, if I couldn't count on any handgun of mine reliably feeding JHP it would not be on my self defense list.

 

[obxned]

If you ever have to use your firearm to save your butt, saving a few bucks on a box of ammo probably won't seem very important. Buy the very best, you're worth it. Aren't you?

 

[markj]

If you ever have to use your firearm to save your butt, saving a few bucks on a box of ammo probably won't seem very important.

Wont do much good if it jams in the pistol. You all mis understand this important point.

There's a big difference between a 1000 pound (+/-) cow and a 150 to 300 pound human.

If the round will penetrate a cow it will surely penetrate a human or am I missing something here?

Use what you want, make sure it works every single time. I will do the same. Wont anyone convince me to do otherwise or to experiment.

As I said, this is a silly arguement. Good ammo isnt all it takes, gotta hit the target to take it down. Havent seen any deer run away after the shot in my case.