Seized by the Manchester, New Hampshire PD for Open Carry

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FirstFreedom,

You're aware that this trial has already happened? Early in the 20th century a man arrested for making a sawed off shotgun went all the way to the supreme court.

The court found him guilty, but their reasoning was fairly pro-2nd Amendment. The court's decision was that the 2A was there to defend the individual's right to keep and bear weapons appropriate for miltary defense. Since the sawed off shotgun was not viewed as a military weapon, laws against them were deemed Constitutional.

Now I ask you: If the Supreme Court already ruled, less than a century ago, that 2A was there to preserve your right to a military type weapon, how is it that we have an assault weapon ban?????



And if the Supreme Court destroyed the GCA tomorrow, what legal impediment would there be to congress passing a new one next week? (None, congress doesn't have to make Constitutional considerations when voting on laws.)



Based on that, I'll stick with what I said; the court of public opinion is more powerful. Laws are immediate, court decisions are few and far between. Every firearm case that has gone in front of the court in decades has failed to address any of the core issues or caused any major state or federal laws to fall. But every time a citizen stops a crime and gets good press, that takes the wind out of those who lobby for more restrictions.

That's the situation we find ourselves in today. The assault weapon ban may fail to be renewed, not because of much of a Republican effort, but more because the anti-gun crowd has lost steam.
 
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A correction - the Supreme Court didn't rule the law constitutional, they ruled that they could not make that determination without sworn testimony as to whether a sawed-off shotgun was a military weapon, and remanded the case to a lower court for further hearings which never took place.
 
IIRC, the guy "Miller" was dead by the time the case reached the Supreme Court, which is why there was "no evidence presented" that the sawed off shotgun was protected by the 2A.
 
:rolleyes: What’s perfectly legal, and also what makes good sense, or even good manners isn’t always the same thing. It’s perfectly legal to open carry in my home state, too; but, as far as I’m concerned, it would take a real, ‘horse’s feedbag’ to walk up to, ‘Pat’s King Of Steaks’ in South Philly while open carrying. Besides, now, you have to worry about getting all that gooey dripping cheese and onions all over your carry piece! (Unless, of course, you’re carrying SOB; but, then, the guy standing in line behind you may end up with a free cheese steak!)

Is open carry legal in Philadelphia? Yes! (If you have a CHL.) Is open carry: Smart, practical, realistic, courteous, or personally safe to do? No! It’s not. If one of Philadelphia’s, ‘Finest’ doesn’t reflex out of long force-of-habit and, ‘pull down on you’, then, one of the South Philly’s thousands of druggies will, probably, whack you over the head and run off with, both, your lunch and exposed carry piece!

This, ‘horse’ has been beaten to death, ‘4 ways from Sunday’. It is, now, capped by MVPel, himself, with the sage comment;

‘A suggestion such as "always check your concealment when you add or remove a piece of clothing" would have come in handy, indeed.’

Wise words from the very guy who started this whole thing. Too bad he didn’t come to this conclusion sooner. Look: it’s perfectly legal to breastfeed a baby in public; (Yeah, it’s a federal law.) but, would you want your wife to do it? (Or, more appropriately, would you want her to do it in South Philly!)

IMAO, always keep your fly closed and your piece well-covered. Unless, of course, you have a chronic need for attention, enjoy taking, ‘little risks’ at public expense, and like to start large heated arguments upon which to nourish your ego. ;)
 
Let me ask a question . Could this have happened to an FBI agent ? The cop would then have assaulted a Federal Agent .
I really doubt that an FBI agent in this situation would complain at all (especially publicly). I suspect he'd be red faced and embarrased by his "brain fart".

All the best
 
The latest news is that I'm waiting on an opportunity in my busy work schedule to head up to the Manchester PD and review and copy the Policy & Procedure guide. I was thinking about going today, but I had a boatload of cases to catch up with, as I'm on call this week. The fact that they close around 4-ish doesn't help. Maybe I'll get up early tomorrow.

I've been participating in a discussion of off-duty LEO carrying in NYC under the provisions of HR-218. It'll be interesting to see whether off-duty cops in anti-gun meccas such as DC, NYC, or Chicago get the same kind of treatment I did if someone notices them carrying and calls 911.
 
Finally got a look at the Policy & Procedure Guide...

Wasn't very hard to find information indicitive that the officers who grabbed me violated policy.

In the "Search & Seizure" chapter, we have the following:

Reasonable Suspicion

In order for a police officer to undertake an investigatory stop, the officer must have a reasonable suspicion — based on specific, articulable facts taken together with rational inferences from those facts – that the particular person stopped has been, is, or is about to be, engaged in criminal activity. State v. Vadnais, 141 N.H. 68, 70 (1996)

The suspect’s conduct must lead somewhere specific, not just to a general sense that this is probably a bad person who may have committed some kind of a crime. Id.

---

To review, the span of time between when they were still looking for me and when they grabbed me (based on the 911 recording) was a few tens of seconds. In light of this fact, it doesn't seem likely that they had any time to develop any specific articulable facts that I had been, or was about to be engaged in criminal activity.

The section on "Terry Stops" comes shortly thereafter:

Exceptions to the Search Warrant Requirement:
B. Stop and Frisk


These searches are commonly referred to as “Terry pat downs.”

Requirements:
  1. There must be reasonable suspicion for the police officer to stop a person; and
  2. The police officer must have reasonable suspicion to believe that the person is presently armed.
---

Note here that "presently armed" is not enough, there must also be "reasonable suspicion" that goes back to the previous section discussing specific, articulable facts.

Since my firearm was exposed, we come to the next section:

C. Plain View

Requirements:
A police officer may seize evidence without a search warrant under the plain view exception if:

  1. he/she is lawfully present where the evidence is located;
  2. inadvertently sees the evidence; and
  3. has probable cause to believe it is evidence of criminal activity.
---

In this case, the standard of evidence is the highest - "probable cause" instead of "reasonable suspicion," and given the facts it's doubtful that even mere suspicion would hold water. The same "probable cause" standard applies to the next section, "exigent circumstances." There are references to state court cases.

What I find interesting is that I didn't come across any reference to the legality of - and in some cases, the requirement for - open carry in any of the materials I was able to review. The department policy is that off-duty officers must discreetly conceal their firearms.
 
It's obvious these pukes had no legal justification for assaulting you, Michael.

If you go after them, count me in for some bucks to help make it happen.

--AS
 
Quoted:
I've been participating in a discussion of off-duty LEO carrying in NYC under the provisions of HR-218. It'll be interesting to see whether off-duty cops in anti-gun meccas such as DC, NYC, or Chicago get the same kind of treatment I did if someone notices them carrying and calls 911.

If you are searching for how an off-duty, out-of-state, LE would be treated in NYC, look at this link. You will find you got off VERY easily compared to this:

http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=76&t=262316

If I'm in NYC and this happens to me, I'm not going to sue. Cops have a job to do. If you see someone armed and need to investigate it, it's MUCH safer to do so if they are NO LONGER ARMED. You never know who you are dealing with, and officers have to take steps to have the upper hand and to keep themselves, and all civilians around them safe while doing their job. If you would consider officer safety for one second, you would agree. I know I'm totally in the minority here, but I don't mind that.
Say you were unarmed in the store and someone else was the armed one. Say someone called the police, and they didn't respond because open carry is legal (sounds like the response most here would prefer). Then, someone held up the place, started shooting, or both. Then, you would be here complaining because the police didn't do their job then, either. Then, everyone would probably jump on that bandwagon and sue then, too.
The first thing you have to understand when you are a cop is that you will never make everyone happy. In fact, most people are going to hate you, until they need you. They don't want to see you at all, until they need you, then you can't be there fast enough.

Just had to voice my opinion, yet again.
 
Just Following Orders

"...officers have to take steps to have the upper hand and to keep themselves, and all civilians around them safe while doing their job. If you would consider officer safety for one second, you would agree."

Yeah. Who cares what the law says.

BTW, my job is keeping myself and my family safe. Would you support me disarming cops, to make sure I can conduct my job safely? Or does being in the employ of a government entity make one above the law? If so, how good can a law be if it must be lifted just to enforce laws?

Do you also support having cops exempt from laws enforced against The People? If so, when governments control weather and a rainy day is mandated, should we exempt cops from the rain, too?

--AS
 
Thanks for the update, Michael. Your case grows stronger and stronger. How is Ms. Dean doing? Getting around well again, I hope.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Good to see you here, Shamaya. How's the new digs?
 
"...officers have to take steps to have the upper hand and to keep themselves, and all civilians around them safe while doing their job. If you would consider officer safety for one second, you would agree."

Unless you are in the Armed Forces Hawgleg44 you are a civilian. I consider my safety as just as important as any LEO's. Rights are not retained by those who would surrender them to some specious linguistic catch-phrases such as:

For the officers safety
For the children
If it saves just one life
It is for your own safety
Civilians don't need guns
The police are there to protect you

Mr Peel was assulted by trained officers who should have known better.
 
Hey Michael, fairly new around here but I have been following your progress. I for one was appalled by your treatment. Sorry to hear it went down like that. Regardless of the two pages of "open carry" rantings, it could have been handled so much better! (and I thought that before reading the police procedures)
As far as I see it you only made two mistakes..

1. You got lax in your situation and left your jacket in the car. This "lax" state continued in the store where you were apprended while never seeing it coming. If you had seen them you could have handled the situation as they approached because they would have been forced to make verbal contact with you as they approched. I also feel, that you don't need to be told any of that, as you learned that leason while it was happening. I (unlike alot of other posters) didn't get so passionate about the episode while reading it that I didn't notice your admited fault in that matter. I just had to make mention of it to show "two" mistakes.

2. You tried to do the "civil" thing. (personally I don't see "letting it go" as an option...sorry to those more passive souls but people that lay down...get walked on!) By that I mean, you tried to contact the department as a wronged citizen seeking nothing but an appology and due repremand of the officers. (not knocking your choice, I'm a fair guy and would have probably done the same under the circumstances) But as I look at this from an outside point of view (only being involved as a fellow CCW permit owner) I see that a visit to your lawyer and a "swift" legal request for the documents/statements with out prior warning (ie: letter to the chief) would not have given them enough time to sweep it under the...uhh I mean "investigate". In other words statements may have been gotten, documents would have been gotten quicker, etc. On most suite type cases, time is not an ally. I realize that a suite was not what your intended purpose of all this is, but your rights were clearly violated. Like stated earlier, I would more than likely have tried the same approach...so I'm not knocking you in the least, just making an observastion...That being: I think by going through the channels you did, they had a chance to cover their actions alot before you were able to get any documentation (be it paper, recorded, or verbal...case in point: the transcript and the recording are to differnt lengths of time.. :confused: ).
Remember the only people who are truely "innocent untill proven guilty" are the ones in power...all the rest of us peons are just told that so we'll feel better... :(


I don't have the means to help you and "our" cause financially (if I did I would in a second) but I do want you to know that you have my moral support, and I'll keep ya in my prayers that justice is done. It aint much, but at the moment it's all I got...Keep fighting the good fight! ;)

P.S. Please...as time allows, keep us posted.
 
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A news tidbit was recently relayed to me about a man arrested in the US for racism because his Albanian flag looked like a pre-war German flag.

This would paint Mr. Peel's officers as downright middle of the road.
 
Posted by "guns":
For the officers safety
For the children
If it saves just one life
It is for your own safety
Civilians don't need guns
The police are there to protect you

It would seem to me that if you want to speak about my post, you would speak about what I said, not throwing in all these anti-gun statements that I would never support. I am a strong supporter of gun rights, and always have been. But, IMO, he brought this situation on himself, as noted in someone else's post above, although they do not share my opinion about the entire situation.

I've said it before, so I'm not going to go into it again. But, being completely oblivious to your surroundings while carrying a gun, ESPECIALLY OPEN CARRY, is totally irresponsible. If the several cops, in full uniform, could walk up to him and put their hand on his gun, ANYONE could have done that.

Maybe this is an excellent learning experience for him and maybe he'll be a little more responsible while carrying.

I think, if a decent lawyer would look into this situation, the officers did absolutely nothing illegal. Maybe excessive, in some people's opinions (who hate cops until they need them), but not mine.

If officer safety means nothing to any of you, don't bother calling when you need help. You would be putting the officer in danger by doing that.

This will be my last post in this thread. It's obvious who is responsible for this whole incident. But, many here seem to be of the opinion that everything is the officers' fault.

I'm unsubscribing from this topic now. Flame away if it makes you feel better.
 
I've said it before, so I'm not going to go into it again. But, being completely oblivious to your surroundings while carrying a gun, ESPECIALLY OPEN CARRY, is totally irresponsible. If the several cops, in full uniform, could walk up to him and put their hand on his gun, ANYONE could have done that.

I've fully acknolwedged that fact, numerous times on numerous threads. Mea culpa. The Fourth Amendment and its associated NH and US Supreme Court rulings still apply, however stupid I might have been.
 
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