Secret Laws: Should we be concerned?

When you start granting greater executive priveleges keep in mind that all the following presidents get them, not just the ones you like or trust.


Everybody seems all too happy to subvert the law if it means catching terrorists but don't notice the groundwork has been set for the detention of ANY US citizen without having to produce evidence in public.

Closed courts? Just trust us?

Why so much faith in government for this but not, say, gun registration?
 
Who are you trying to dupe? The American CRIMINAL Liberties Union should be shut down under the RICO statues. The ACLU (Anti Christian Liberals Unite) has done more damage to our country, freedoms, and Constitution than any other group in history with the exception of liberals in Congress and the courts
 
ACLU=:barf:, nobody special, read my post, i said a known foreign terrorist. please don`t tell me that you think a captured known terrorist(usually known cause he`s proudly taken responsibility for blowing something up, as if to brag about it) thats captured in this country and has done harm to Americans here or abroad is intitled to the same due process as you and i.
 
Sacrificing American values becuase Akmed has fantasy's about blowing the Golden Gate Bridge up isn't acceptable.

If we know somone is a terrorist who has committed bombings for a fact we should simply kill them. But the idea that anyone who might be suspected of being a terrorist can be held without a trial is unacceptable.

If they are terrorists and there is factual information of crimes they have done, simply shoot them.

If their is any doubt if they are terrorists though, then they need to be let go.
 
IMHO a foriegn terrorist having the same rights in this country is whats wrong with this country. a captured known foriegn terrorist in this country should be shot,period. no trial, no wasted time and my tax money, SHOT. We can`t do that here cause we`re to busy being politically correct and wondering what our neighboring countries will think about that action. so, we put terrorist in prison, some poor underpaid guard steps on this poor known terrorist toes the wrong way and loses his job, terrorists gets money hungry US attorney or the ACLU voluteers to defend him, and my tax $`s get to feed him in prison rest of his life while i`m making the rest of his family rich buying oil off them. its the American way. as Bin Ladin said "I`ll defeat you with your own laws". that statement alone seems to say that some of our laws especially as far as inteligence and secrecy should have been changed long ago. maybe around the era of Black Hawk Down. Will we ever learn

What about when they decide to extend this concept to domestic "terrorists" who have stockpiles of "high powered assault weapons" thousands of rounds of ammunition and explosives. Especially ones who post quotes like the above which advocate murder and the overthrow of the COTUS.

The rule of law is there to protect you from a government or it's agents who act illegally. Do you not remember the whole king and subject thing.

When will you ever learn?
 
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."


All Men have certain unalienable rights.

All Men
 
dresden, a few words of advice A: watch who your calling a terrorist B: the key word in my post was KNOWN terrorist. KNOWN, as in killing many people and leaving your calling card as to let the rest of the world know you did it. C: maybe 9/11 didn`t hit close enough to home to you, with our lenient laws of today(most written before terrorism was the trendy thing) don`t worry, we`ll surely experience some of the same. if you and people like you want to tolerate known domestic or foreign terrorism, play with the same due process laws we currently have towards this type of scum, you make the U.S a playground for terrorism. this is a kind of warfare our society`s not familiar with and it cannot be tolerated. killing known terrorist is not murder, its a duty as there is no room for them in our society. you asked "when will i ever learn", i`ve learned what extreme measures terrorist will go to to attack the US., i`ve learned that there is a group of people in the world that believe they will reap the utmost highest glory from their people and God if they can destroy their infidels (US being one of those infidels). i`ve learned that those same people have families and are raising their kids to believe as they do, hince terrorism for decades to come, and one thing i learned along time ago, you don`t pussyfoot with a known killer. its him or you. i`d rather it be him.
 
ACLU=, nobody special, read my post, i said a known foreign terrorist. please don`t tell me that you think a captured known terrorist(usually known cause he`s proudly taken responsibility for blowing something up, as if to brag about it) thats captured in this country and has done harm to Americans here or abroad is intitled to the same due process as you and i.

They are entitled to full due process in our legal system, which is as it should be. Otherwise, consider... what exactly constitutes a "known" foreign terrorist? Does it take more than a mere accusation? Flimsy evidence? Without due process, innocents will suffer; consider how many people on death row were later found to be innocent due to the invention of DNA testing. And they had extensive due process.

Of course, a confession makes due process much simpler. ;)

But what you're advocating -- a lack of due process entirely -- sounds suspiciously similar to China's cultural revolution. :barf:
 
I think it is immoral for any country to hold a person without due process of law. If the war on terror were an actual war rather than a slogan, then I would be more sympathetic to holding captives without trial. Our country should stand on its morals and integrity. We hurt ourselves by acting like the Russians, Chinese or any other tin-pot dictatorship in regard to this legal issue.
 
But what you're advocating -- a lack of due process entirely -- sounds suspiciously similar to China's cultural revolution.

We didn't give due process to german POW's during WWII. Why should we grant due process to non citizens captured on foreign battlefields?
 
We didn't give due process to german POW's during WWII. Why should we grant due process to non citizens captured on foreign battlefields?

That's because the Germans were the enemy. Nowadays, we can't say someone is an enemy- it's not PC.

Appeasement is the new game in town.
 
How Roosevelt handled saboteurs in WWII

The Nazi 'Invasion' of LI
In 1942, four would-be saboteurs paddle ashore at Amagansett and caught the LIRR

At 8 on the evening of June 12, 1942, the German U-boat Innsbruck completed its 15-day journey across the Atlantic Ocean. As darkness descended, the submarine settled quietly to the sandy bottom a few hundred yards off the Amagansett beach.

After midnight, the U-boat rose to the surface and began to move closer to the beach. The Nazi ``invasion'' of Long Island was about to begin.

That month, the war in Europe was 21 months old. The powerful German war machine controlled much of Western Europe right up to the English Channel, and had attacked east into the Soviet Union. The United States had entered the war the previous December, after the Japanese attack on the American naval base at Pearl Harbor.

Sticking out into the Atlantic for more than 100 miles, Long Island was, at its eastern end, sparsely populated; German submarines had been spotted on the surface not far from shore. Its miles of beaches invited trouble, as did its nearness to New York City. Two years before, in 1940, a German-American recruited by the Nazis -- who was also working with the FBI -- had set up operations in a house in Centerport where he was to send radio messages to Germany. And a large Nazi spy ring had been broken in Brooklyn before the start of the war.


A German hat, along with explosives, were found in Amagansett Photo
Nazi Saboteurs At Amagansett
But the Nazi threat was to take on a whole new dimension when, on the foggy night of June 12, four men carrying explosives and tens of thousands of dollars in cash paddled from the Innsbruck to a deserted stretch of Amagansett beach and walked ashore.

As they did, John Cullen, a 21-year-old Coast Guardsman who happened to be at this exact spot on the beach as part of his routine beach patrol -- talk about being in the right place at the right time -- saw their shadows through the night fog. Must be fishermen, he thought, and as he walked up to the four men -- Richard Quirin, George Dasch, Ernest Burger and Heinrich Heinck -- he told them to accompany him back to headquarters.

``How old are you?'' Dasch asked Cullen in English.

``Twenty-one,'' he answered. ``What's that got to do with it?''

``You got a mother and a father? You want to see them again?''

Ignoring the question, he noticed one of the men dragging a box over the beach. ``What's in the bag, clams?'' he said.

``You don't know what this is about,'' Dasch said. Dasch reached into his pocket and produced a wad of cash. He thrust $260 into Cullen's hand. ``Forget you ever saw us.''

Cullen backed into the fog and was soon running as hard as he could to Coast Guard headquarters three miles away. ``They're German,'' he breathlessly told his duty officer when he ran in.Within minutes, a group of Coast Guardsmen armed with rifles returned to the beach but found nothing suspicious. But while standing on the beach, something happened: The ground vibrated. Peering out to sea, they thought they saw the outlines of a U-boat stuck on a sandbar, its diesel engines revving hard. Maybe, maybe not. Unsure, the searchers left and returned at dawn to scour the beach.

Meanwhile, the four Germans walked across farm fields to the Amagansett train station, where they caught the 6:57 to New York City.

As the Germans were comfortably riding west across the length of Long Island, Cullen and the other searchers looked for physical proof of a landing. They found it when Cullen spotted a pack of cigarettes. Next to it was a wet trail across the sand, as if something heavy had been dragged; near it was a patch of wet sand. Poking a stick into the sand, one of the men hit a hard surface. Minutes later, they had uncovered all the proof they needed that Long Island had been invaded by saboteurs -- a canvas bag containing German uniforms, and tin boxes that held explosives, detonators and disguised bombs.

When their train reached Jamaica, the four Germans bought suits, got shaves and boarded a train for Manhattan, where they checked into hotels. For reasons not known today, Dasch then did the incredible -- he told Burger that he was going to call the FBI and turn himself in. Two days after walking ashore at Amagansett, Dasch did just that, telling an agent who answered the phone in New York that he was going to go to Washington and personally inform J. Edgar Hoover.

After arriving in Washington, Dasch spilled his guts to the FBI. And he dropped a bombshell -- that four other Nazi saboteurs had landed at the same time from a second submarine on the coast of Florida. Two weeks after the invasion began, all eight Nazis were under arrest. It was over before it began.

In Washington, President Franklin Roosevelt decided all eight would be tried before a military tribunal. He wanted them all dead, he admitted in a memo to his attorney general. In the courtroom, all of the Germans said they had no intention of carrying out their orders to blow up installations.

And Cullen, the man who'd been in the right place at the right time, took the stand and testified that Dasch was the man he'd met on the beach. After his testimony, Cullen ran into J. Edgar Hoover in the hallway.

``Congratulations,'' Hoover said. ``You were a help.''

All were found guilty. Six were sentenced to die in the electric chair. Dasch, the whistleblower, received a 30-year sentence; Burger, who also cooperated, was sentenced to life in prison. On Aug. 8, 1942, the six were executed, their bodies buried in a pauper's grave.
Three of the four men who had landed in Amagansett -- Burger, Heinck and Quirin -- had been associated with Camp Siegfried in Yaphank, according to Marvin Miller. Miller, now 63 and a retired Long Island schoolteacher, wrote ``Wunderlich's Salute,'' the first history of the the German-American Bund on Long Island. Miller said that seven of the eight who landed in the United States were members of the bund, which was established to promote Hitlerism in the United States. The bund sponsored the camp, a summer retreat that attracted thousands of bundists from throughout the metropolitan area.

When the war was finally over, Cullen worked on Long Island as an insurance adjuster, a door-to-door salesman, and a sales representative in the milk business.

Burger and Dasch were paroled by President Harry Truman in 1948 and returned to Germany. In 1952, Dasch told a reporter he had been treated badly in Germany, where he was perceived as a traitor. He wanted to return to the United States, he said.

He also said he'd spared Cullen's life on the beach, as he was under orders by his superiors to kill any witnesses. ``I saved that kid's life,'' he said.

In an interview in 1992, Cullen said he was lucky. Dasch, he said, ``wasn't really a bad guy. If he was, I wouldn't be here.''
 
Master Blaster: Are you trying to say that some other President besides Bush went so far as to illegally hold foreigners and call for their trial before a military tribunal rather than in the civilian courts? Add to that are you also saying that they were executed!!!!! :eek: And was all of this done without full 24 hour press coverage and Red Cross oversight????? :confused:
Was there any proof other than being illegal immigrants that these fellows were doing anything wrong? ;)


I just don't know if I can believe this story. :(
 
Why does something having occurred in the past somehow justifying similar actions in the present?

Things like Iran-Contra bely that bit of acrobatic logical.
 
Why does something having occurred in the past somehow justifying similar actions in the present?

Because this as well as decisions by the court which state that foreign enemies don't have access to our courts dispel the silly myth that foreign terrorists captured on foreign soil and held in foreign countries have "rights" under our constitution.
 
dresden, a few words of advice A: watch who your calling a terrorist

There's the rub, who gets to decide who is a terrorist? After all, everybody knows that gun owners are crazed militia types who talk about needing their guns to bring down the government when they don't like the laws enacted.

You won't have to search too hard on this forum to find threats against the government and law enforcement officers who may try to seize guns.

Domestic terrorists?

Would you like these guys having the power of life and death over you?

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/20/elderly.shootout/index.html?iref=topnews
 
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Because this as well as decisions by the court which state that foreign enemies don't have access to our courts dispel the silly myth that foreign terrorists captured on foreign soil and held in foreign countries have "rights" under our constitution.

Unlike Master Blaster's post which was on American soil. . .

As far as I can tell, having an opaque administration (this or previous) is perfectly legal. However, this thread is about whether it is desirable.

I suppose Bill Clinton's impeachment (and the vote during it) establishes precedent that it is ok for sitting presidents to lie undo oath? (note this is colloquial use of the word precedent -- for the purposes of bringing up past events as shown in this thread, not legal)
 
Bill Clinton only lied if you consider oral stimulation to be the same as standard sex, at least if thats the "lie" you are talking about.
 
But then is that ok?

Do we judge what standards we hold our government to based on the past or on the here and now?

I think each generation has a different perspective and what was acceptable then is not necessarily acceptable now.

I'm not a fan of unilateral action. I prefer a govt where there is oversight. The current Karl Rove subpoena as a case in point. Hidden, political abuse of the DOJ should not be tolerated.

Oversight is not possible with secret laws.
 
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