Seat Belt Laws: At Any Cost

They were there for other business and it just happened that they discovered he had the warrant.
Click to expand...

And why, of the various methods available to enforce a seatbelt fine, do we have to issue arrest warrants?

I'm not blaming the police. I'm blaming a law that says "if you don't pay a seatbelt fine, Judge So and So is going to issue a warrant and two dudes with guns are going to come pick you up"
 
"Federal law mandates sanctions and loss of federal highway funds for any state that does not have a compulsory seat belt law, Dunegan related."

http://www.lsb.state.ok.us/house/news5437.htm

It's just not right how federal govt can threaten and push around the states however they see fit (but this borders on 'change of topic', so I'll stop there).
 
The guy made a mistake in not dealing with his traffic citation.
The guy may have made a mistake in doing something that the police considered "resisting". That might have been anything from a reflexive jerking away from an officer trying to pull him out of the car to trying to skewer the closest cop with a shiv. We don't know at this point whether the "resisting arrest" charge is a valid one or just something to excuse the actions of the officers. We may never know for sure.

So the cops are supposed to decide on their own which laws to enforce or which warrants to serve?
Click to expand...
Don't you already? To a reasonable extent, I mean.
Do you pull over every single vehicle that exceeds the speed limit or commits some other minor infraction?
Do you ticket everyone you pull over?
 
Russ,

It is IMHO related. The federal government mandates that the States comply. The states therefore demand that we the People comply by any means possible.

Thus it creates incidents like this one where a person, with a (I'll use Oregon fines) $94 dollar violation is put into the ground by LEO's "just doing their jobs".

I had read, but then forgotten (my bad), Rich's solution to the problem. When the person goes to renew their registration, it shows up, they can't register their vehicle until the matter is cleared.

No one dies, no one is harmed, and the LEO's can go and get the violent criminals off the street.

To get the "other minor violation" people, just have it on their property taxes (of which I don't agree with but that is another, non-gun, related post for another board elsewhere). When the tax statement is sent out, add the fines to it. Or if just state and you don't own property, then when you make out your state taxes it is included in your W4 (or is it W2?). If you "get back" some of your stolen money (I know, another thread for a non-gun related board) then it is taken from the money that is returned. If you have to pay, then it is added to your tax payment.

Easy, common sense solutions without the use of LETHAL force in one form or the other.

*Oh, to add: Those on welfare or SSI/D, the money will be taken for any fines out of your montly total.

Wayne
 
"When the person goes to renew their registration, it shows up, they can't register their vehicle until the matter is cleared."

That solution makes much more sense for something as small as a seatbelt violation. A warrant seems a bit extreme. We're not talking about a serious criminal here.
 
Okay... lets say we use Rich's method. We keep this guy from registering his vehicle. Now lets say he decides to keep driving his vehicle after he registration is expired. (I know you guys will probably say that requiring reistration of vehicles is unnecessary taxing next) Now officer friendly goes to pull the guy over for driving with an expired tag. In florida, I think they can impound your vehicle for driving with an expired tag. Say the guy resists and then gets pepper sprayed. Same situation. How about officer Friendly decides to just write the guy a ticket and tells him to get his car registered and pay his fine. Lets say the guy rips it up and throws it in the trash. Failure to pay the fine and failure to show up in court leads to a suspension of his license. He is probably still driving around with an expired tag and now a suspended license. He get pulled over and guess what. Resists again. The officer sprays him and he dies. Same result.

Were you there to say that the officer used excessive force? Should the officer tried to physically restrain him instead and risked injury or even a gun grab? Resisting could even mean he was reaching for a weapon. Our police officers put their lives on the line everyday. Saying that they can't spray a guy who is resisting is a crock of crap. Powerless cops don't work in society.

I also know there are some power tripping thugs with badgs out there that are just itching to bust people's heads in. That is why so many squad cars are equipped with video cameras now adays. Internal affairs needs to crack down on these jerks and get them out of the force.

For the record, I am not law enforcement.
 
Ah, the heck with it.

Why don't we just allow the LEO's just to shoot anyone with any type of violation. Heck, all I'm reading is that the use of force is justified with anything, from small violations to large so why don't we just cut out the "middleman" and just blow the brains out of every citizen that the LEO finds in contempt of LEO or whatever law is on the books.

It's quick, it's easy, and then everyone (LEO) will be justified.

Heck, people have been killed for a lot less than $94 dollars and other minor violations, so why don't we just go for the gusto :barf: .

Wayne
 
Stephen,

The guy could have just figured he wasn't going to pay such a stupid ticket and figured they'd never find him. If he can't renew his registration, they've obviously found him, and in a less aggressive situation.

Now he atleast has been given more of a reasonable option rather than being arrested for failure to appear for a seatbelt violation. If he decides to drive with expired tags, he's getting into a whole different situation. At least he was given another chance to pay such a pointless ticket, and will more likely pay it when faced with the fact that he can't renew his registration and will be violating another law.
 
ATW,

That's why I expanded on the taxes, social society, etc..

What I'm not understanding is the "want" to resort to any type of force over simple minor violations that can be resolved without the need of force over mere money.

If the LEO's and the state feel that seat belt violations, helmet violations, minor violations of a law are so important, then why not just have mandatory jail time?

Seatbelt = 30 days
Parking = 30 days
Helmet = 30 days

Heck, the loss of a job/employment is better than death or extreme harm don't you think?

Or better yet, why doesn't the government just get the heck out of trying to nannify our dang lives?

Wayne
 
From an article before he died, interesting parts bolded.
Peruvian immigrant clings to life
By: Jennifer Crump, Staff writer 08/22/2005

A North Texas resident and Peruvian immigrant remains on life support and in critical condition after he was apprehended by Allen police officers two weeks ago.

Edgar Vera, 45, of Arlington, has extensive and irreversible brain damage, according to his cousin and family spokesperson Luis Pacchioni, after police used a form of pepper spray during a struggle that ensued when officers tried to arrest him on Aug. 4.

"His condition is rapidly deteriorating," Pacchioni said. "He can't speak for himself, so we are."

Family members met with doctors and neurologists last Friday to discuss Vera's condition.

"The doctors said that there is nothing to be done," family attorney Steve Salazar said. "He will never recover; in fact, his condition is getting worse by the day because his brain is deteriorating, which is causing his organs to shut down. In fact, he was placed on dialysis last week because his kidney failed him. Essentially, there is zero activity occurring in the brain. The only thing keeping him going is the machines he's hooked up to."

Vera's wife Lorena and their two sons had to decide whether or not to take him off of the machines that are keeping him alive.

"Lorena and her boys were asked to consider taking him off of life support since there is no chance for recovery," Salazar said. "After thinking about it for several days, they decided to keep him on the machines, but issued a DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) order if he goes into cardiac arrest."

That night, friends and family members of Vera gathered outside of the police department to hold a prayer vigil for the husband, father and friend who can no longer breathe on his own. A benefit barbecue to help defray expenses took place on Sunday at Norbuck Park in Dallas.

"We don't know how much longer he has," Salazar said. "It could be hours or even days. In the mean time, friends and family especially are staying by his side until the end."

Even the Peruvian government has paid Vera a visit. Peru's consulate general for Texas Eduardo Rivoldi was sent to Allen last week to visit with the family and gather information to bring back to Peru's government. He is also serving as a mediator between the Vera family and the police.

Police reports show that officers responded to a call about a suspicious person in the 1500 block of Mahogany Drive. That person was Vera, who, it was later learned, had gone to Allen to visit his cousin and was waiting in his car because she was not home at the time. The two responding officers attempted to arrest Vera after learning of an outstanding warrant from Irving for an unpaid seat-belt violation.

Vera resisted and allegedly stopped breathing after being sprayed with oleoresin capsicum spray (a form of pepper spray) during the altercation. Officers successfully resuscitated Vera and took him to the Medical Center of McKinney.
The officers, Laura Gilmore and Gino Ruatta, are on paid administrative leave. The Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Texas Rangers are investigating the incident.

"My role is to help establish a relationship between Allen police officials and Edgar's family, which is why I spent several days trying to sort this out." Rivoldi said. "We understand that it takes time to get the facts straight, and that there are many procedures to follow. We are fully supportive of the investigation being done by the Texas Rangers and the FBI, as well as Allen police's internal affairs department. We are just waiting patiently for the information to be released."

Salazar wonders if the information isn't being released for a reason.

"If [Allen police] have nothing to hide, then why are they hiding it? They haven't released the details on the bill of discovery we issued last week as well as other pertinent details, such as witness testimony," Salazar said. "According to witness accounts, Edgar was very cooperative. Some say that he was thrown on the ground so hard, the thud could be heard inside their houses. One woman even admits that she heard Edgar scream for help twice and heard the officers threaten to choke him if he didn't stop. That doesn't seem to be so transparent."

"We acknowledge that our officers used force, but it has to be determined if they used excessive force," Allen Police Chief Bill Rushing said.

Regardless of the feud between Vera's supporters and the police department, Vera's family is maintaining a positive, if not bittersweet attitude.

"Every day we pray for him," Pacchioni said. "We keep hoping for a miracle, even if we know it may never come."
Click to expand...
 
"According to witness accounts, Edgar was very cooperative. Some say that he was thrown on the ground so hard, the thud could be heard inside their houses. One woman even admits that she heard Edgar scream for help twice and heard the officers threaten to choke him if he didn't stop. That doesn't seem to be so transparent."
Click to expand...

But force was ok, right, the man did have a warrant out on him..... :rolleyes:
 
I wonder how many of the complainers and MMQB's have gotten out of their easy chair and done something about this "unjust" seatbelt law? How many have contacted their legislators, gathered signed petitions, put together informational studies, (ie: done more than bitch)? :confused:
 
I wonder how many of the complainers and MMQB's have gotten out of their easy chair and done something about this "unjust" seatbelt law? How many have contacted their legislators, gathered signed petitions, put together informational studies, (ie: done more than bitch)?
Click to expand...

And I wonder how many LEO's have thought "gee, this law is not right, and contacted their legislators, gathered petitions, talked with their supervisors, etccc. Not many, that would intrude on the CONTROL aspect.
 
Close, but no cigar. We cops have got to have enough nads to say "No, that's an unconstitutional/dumb-assed/etc. law, and I am going to exercise my discretion and NOT write citations for it. That's all it takes. Back before you could "legally" carry a gun in your car in MO, I was ignoring these "violations" so long as the subject in question wasn't causing problems, and had no criminal history. Yes, it pissed some of my contemporaries off. I can still look in the mirror every morning, without looking away in disgust.
Click to expand...

So what happens when police simply start picking which laws they will enforce? Or, worse, who they are going to apply the laws to?

The one thing I think that is worse than unconstitutional, idiotic laws, is selective enforcement of laws.

I think what needs to happen, is finding out exactly what killed him. And then take appropriate action.
 
Well Rich, almost a hundred replies in 24 hrs. You sure do know how to stir the pot, man! :D :D

I haven't followed all the replies, but...

But force was ok, right, the man did have a warrant out on him.....
Click to expand...
I suspect that this was a case of escalation, the results of which neither ever dreamed would occur.

But to the crux of the matter, no cop that I know of enjoys taking action on administrative violations, as opposed to criminal violations. It's a pain in the backside. I'm beginning to wonder if my dept. is unique, or close to it. We have a very simple way of dealing with warrants like this. If contact with a citizen reveals a warrant of this type, we first pull up his record, if any. Two traffic violations in 3 years, no criminal arrests. Hmm. Is he local? Yes. "Sir, did you know that you have unpaid fines?" Yes or no answer, either way. If it continues in a civil manner, it goes like this: "Tell ya what. I really don't want to put you in jail over something like this, so if I let you go, will you show up in court tomorrow and get this straightened out?" Most say yes and most of those, believe it or not, actually show up. Those that don't... well, I know where to find 'em, and I only give one freebie to a customer :D . My report says "released to appear, warrant to be served in court". I can justify it by A. Keeping a beat officer on the beat instead of being tied up for an average 90 minutes per arrest. That's really important when you're short handed (and we are!). B. There is finite jail space (VERY finite here!), and I don't want to loose our last slot to an unpaid fine warrant and have to watch some guy that just beat the crap out of his wife walk. This is officer discretion, and while some might gasp, our judge is OK with this. But understand, we don't extend this courtesy to our 3-time losers.

By the way, a recently retired officer from my dept. had our dept's record number of arrests. Know how he did it? Believe it or not, by using the telephone. He would start off each day going over new warrants, and then phoning the defendant. He could charm the scales off of a snake, and had people, with both misdemeanor and felony warrants, coming in droves to be served. It's also interesting to note that, where his street encounters were concerned, he had the lowest number of uses of force on the dept. So while we can't always avoid the use of force, the Gift of Gab can go a long ways towards that end.
 
I beat a seatbelt ticket in California when the officer didn't show up, but I was half hoping to appeal it on the basis of the right to refuse life-saving medical treatment that was established through various Supreme Court cases.

Now I live in New Hampshire, the last remaining state with no seatbelt law - and the state with the fourth-lowest highway fatality rate in the nation as it happens - so I don't have to worry about it.
 
Yes, it has been known, for a cop to get excited with pepper spray and then claim resisting after the fact.
Click to expand...

Yep, Ptown Beretta, you speak the truth.

Kelly Saxton
Staff Writer

August 11, 2005

When Gus Elliott was a student at NT in 2003, he was a criminal justice major with plans of becoming a police officer. But because of an incident on Aug. 16, 2003, he has now filed a civil lawsuit against three NT police officers.

The lawsuit claims the officers slammed Elliott's head, face-first, onto the trunk of his car and signed a false affidavit stating that Elliott assaulted them.

Attorney Richard Gladden filed the lawsuit against officers Greg Prickett, Mark Linnell and William Hitt on July 29 at the 158 district court. Gladden said the jury would probably find damages up to or more than $50,000 and hopes punitive damages will be issued to deter similar actions in the future.

"They didn't just assault a citizen," Gladden said. "They lied about it."

Story image 2
NT police wrestle with Elliott before pounding his face onto the trunk of his car.

Prickett said, according to video evidence and his sworn affidavit, that he pulled Elliott over at 1100 Maple St. because he "failed to stop at a designated stop point" before a flashing red light.

Elliott said he pulled out a little far to see around a metal box on the corner of Highland Street to establish it was safe to turn but was still very confused as to why he was pulled over.

"I really just think he came after me because I was the only car out at that hour, and he was bored," Elliott said.

Prickett asked Elliott to step out of the car, and in the officer's sworn affidavit, he stated that Elliott exited the car and "fell against the door." Police video showed that statement was fabricated.

Elliott told Prickett that he had not been drinking that night. Elliott was given a field sobriety test and submitted to a hand-held breathalyzer. Prickett asked him again if he had been drinking, and Elliot stuck to his previous statement. Then Linnell and Hitt arrived, and Prickett asked Elliot to put his hands behind his back.

Elliott recalls saying, "Oh man," and freezing up.

"I just couldn't believe they were arresting me," Elliott said. "There was just no reason for it."

In the police video, the three policemen surrounded Elliott and slammed him face-first onto the trunk of his car. There was a loud crack, and Elliot uttered a muffled groan of, "Oh god, my teeth, awww, oh god, my teeth!"

A third of Elliott's tooth chipped off, and there was a cut on his chin deep enough to require five stitches. The medical expenses totaled $6,680.55.

Elliot was handcuffed, put on the ground and told by Prickett that he had ended up on the hood of the car because he had head-butted Linnell. According to the video, that head-butt did not take place, but Prickett's sworn affidavit said, "Elliot began to fight, head-butting Officer Linnell."

"I didn't head-butt him," Elliot said. "I hadn't done anything wrong."

Elliott was then taken to jail where he was refused entrance until he was first taken to the hospital.

"The police officers hadn't offered me any medical help or anything at all," Elliott said.

The three officers are still employed by the university. Prickett, now employed at the NT Dallas campus, said he would love to talk about it, but had been advised against it by Renaldo Stowers, an associate general council at NT.

NT Deputy Police Chief Ed Reynolds also declined to comment, saying it was against university policy to discuss matters of pending litigation.

"There's no indication that the university chief of police has done anything to discipline them." Elliott's attorney, Gladden, said.

The district attorney did not prosecute the NT policemen for the criminal charges of aggregated assault of a citizen or signing a false affidavit, Gladden said.

"I found that a little discouraging," Elliott said.

Elliot did not receive a DWI, and his aggravated assault charge was dropped to resisting arrest. The assault charge was dropped on when Lisa Decker, a prosecutor for the state, signed a motion to dismiss, which stated: "After reviewing the videotape, it has been determined that this case should not be prosecuted."

Elliot, now 21, is no longer a student at NT. He relocated to Texas State University at San Marcos to put the incident behind him, and he no longer wants to be a police officer.

http://www.ntdaily.com/vnews/displa...1/42fb680c905fd
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top