School shooting in Denver today

I wonder if, in a decade or two, we will find out that the generically described gunmen were patsies and the real critters were borrowed from any one of the fed agencies...

Then again, why would I ever suspect foul play, it is probably just red-blooded American kids acting out.

I only hope, if these nutcases are actually genuine, that there will be no prisoners...

PS: People at work just got the news and are gum-flapping about it. I just ordered a case of rifle ammo, just in case there's a fall-out from this...I think we know what kind of spin ABC is putting on this.

[This message has been edited by cornered rat (edited April 20, 1999).]
 
How about if we keep this thread for Fact based posts and start a new one for theories about the how/why and possible ramifications..

I would prefer that, if it is okay with everyone else.....


*** Meanwhile, it seems that there has been more shooting just before 6 pm Eastern....

The Gov. of CO is blaming the "culture of violence".. he never mentioned guns, in fact he declined to answer a question about possible "gun legislation".... He was putting a lot of blame on parents from my take.
 
The Sheriff just said they have 2 dead suspects... and wounded as high as 25.

How many suspects are there?

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CHECK OUT WWW.ECHOSTATION.COM
 
Kodiac, I heard two most of the day, but the last hour or so, they have been saying possibly 3....

According to that Sherriff he said the suspects were "found" dead... and that they were several fatalities....


Jsut heard that they have found bomb in one of the suspect's homes...

[This message has been edited by Rob (edited April 20, 1999).]
 
Holly...
CNN just said the sheriff said the number dead may be as high as 25...

My god... Where were these kid's parent? they said they been talking about this for as long as 6 months - and no one ever said anything?

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CHECK OUT WWW.ECHOSTATION.COM
 
This is the first I have heard about this. What a tragedy! Does anyone else find the timing of all these school shootings just a bit too convenient?

And I just got this in my e-box:

From: wewinluv@leading.net (katie charles)
To: ZOBOLI@aol.com


This is an extract of an National Public Radio (NPR) interview between a female broadcaster and US Army Lieutenant General Reinwald about sponsoring a Boy Scout Troop on his military installation.

Interviewer: "So, LTG Reinwald, what are you going to do with these young boys on their adventure holiday?"

LTG Reinwald: "We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting."

Interviewer: "Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible,isn't it?"

LTG Reinwald: "I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the range."

Interviewer: "Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?"

LTG Reinwald: "I don't see how, we will be teaching them proper range discipline before they even touch a firearm."

Interviewer: "But you're equipping them to become violent killers."

LTG Reinwald: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you?"

End of the interview


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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."
 
John, I've been wondering the same thing ever since the first school shooting. That came right on the heels of the repeal of certain portions of the Brady Bill by the Supreme Court. Maybe I'm way too paranoid, but I just can't help but wonder.....
 
All of these school shootings could have been cut short if a teacher, with propper training, carried a handgun. BUT!!!, we will never sell it.
Kit in AR
 
What we need in this country is:
1- Limitation of procreation. People need to get a license and take classes before considering raising a family. It should be a stringent pass/fail. It is not the media, the gun culture, video games or the the kind of dog you own; It's about poor parenting and a lack of discipline. God help us all.
 
Ed's found an interesting tidbit - you should read the post re: the AOL missive by 'gay bikers'.

Of course, no matter what the reason for this incredible tragedy, we'll hear that things will be better if we just pass a few more laws. While Hollywood's anti-self defense-types churn out more violent films and TV programming ... And no, I don't think they are to blame for most of such violence, but I feel they are contributing factors. Since I believe in freedom of speech and expression, I am unsure what actions can be taken. However, I do find it tragically fascinating that some anti-gunners make violent movies.

Let me ask two questions of our more experienced TFL'ers:

1. Does the NRA have any type of anti-violence program? If not, we should. If so, where would I find info (they have a huge web site).

2. Is it true that the Principal in the Arkansas school shooting stopped the attackers by retrieving his gun from his car?

At this point it appears that 25 people may have tragically lost their lives today in Littleton, CO. What a waste.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited April 21, 1999).]
 
Susan Pollack of Handgun Control Inc. was interviewed on the news, and she had some brilliant insight into this situation, even though we don't know anything about the guns used, nor the capacity thereof, except that a shotgun was used, shich holds much less than ten rounds. She said:

'We do know that there is one law in progress that would have prevented this tragedy, and that is the law limiting all handguns to only a ten pound capacity'.

Obviously, in light of the fact that we don't even know what kinds of guns they were using, or how many rounds they held, or how the crime went down, or how this would have made a difference, I surely don't have to rant about how assinine ofa a statement that is, do I?

Here in SoCal, they are already using that leverage to praise the law in progress about benning ALL hi-cap mags, even the ones we own.

thaddeus
 
"Smoke" on my site informed me of this relationship of the gunmen to an anarchist group "UAP". Check out this site, and what this group had to say about their members doing this crime:

http://www.overthrow.com/home.html

their comments on the crime, with a genuine lack of concern, believeing that this was a small casualty in a larger war against the system:

http://www.overthrow.com/leadstory42099.html

As an aside, this is the first I have heard, that only one black person was hit out of forty, so I guess it is hard to pin racial motivations as we are hearing on the news.

Initial reports, in the afternoon, also stated that the suspects were openly gay/bisexual. No more word on that. Provided it was true (is was said in student interviews), I always like to watch for tidbits like that, and see what the media does with it, usually out of political correctness.

thaddeus

[This message has been edited by thaddeus (edited April 21, 1999).]
 
I wonder if Susan Pollack is aware that many of the victims were killed by the homemade pipe bombs? Late reports say many had shrapnel wounds. Let's see if she can put a magazine capacity on them.
 
thaddeus: Your sources may be out of date. TV viewing is on the decline among teens. What most of us here use as a means of shareing info, fellowship, occasional jabs and other such friendly exchanges, is being used by much of today's kids as a *religion*. Never before in the history of mankind has the exchange of information,graphic information been so readily available.
 
J. Thomas> Does the NRA have any type of anti-violence program? If not, we should.

I respectfully disagree. The NRA exists for the purpose of promoting shooting skills and firearm safety, as well as defending 2nd amendment rights. The idea of "violence prevention" is a liberal invention of people who are too stupid to realize that violence is not a disease. I would sincerely hope that the NRA would not buy into such an intellectually bankrupt idea. Should it do so, that would portend the death of the organization as a viable entity for defending our rights.
Violence is a part of the very fabric of the universe. Life on earth would not be possible without the occurence of the most violent event in nature (nuclear fusion on the star Sol, our sun.) Those who buy into "violence prevention" of the CDC/HCI/CPHV type are refusing to recognize a basic fact: existence is, always has been, and will continue to be, very dangerous. One might go so far as to say: Life is hazardous to your health.

Regards, Richard-NRA Life
 
45King, I'm not suggesting the NRA become kinder and gentler with our foes, or that it become focused on touchy feely approaches to the exclusion of firearms.

What I am suggesting is that programs such as Eddie Eagle and others include a portion to help kids (especially) understand that violence should not be used to solve problems. That is, the initiation of violence against others. Appropriate defense is fine - attacks are obviously not. If these programs already include such features, great. If not, they should be incorporated.

For example, in our CCW class we spoke at length about the continuum of force, efforts to avoid problem situations, potential cover and retreat, legal implications, etc. From my perspective this is logical - not a liberal invention. Kids operate at a little different level, and some clearly choose violence instead of the many alternatives they should choose.

If the NRA and other pro-self defense groups don't acknowledge this need, our enemies will continue to make us look uncaring, unrealistic and part of the problem instead of the solution. That is not true, and we should not allow them to take this high ground. I think we can do that without becoming the quivering piles of matter that they often are.

I certainly see this approach as reasonable, practical, smart politically, and preferable to making sure I buy another case of ammo before the latest tragedy trims my rights further and further.

Do we still disagree with each other?
 
So will we now be limited to only 1 pound of powder per household now? Only 6in of pipe? Limits are not the key. Loving and caring perents are the key. Discipline is another contributing factor. These are what make parents. The world has its evil and the world needs to understand that only by educating are we ever going to keep the OK city's, Ruby Ridge's,and Littleton's from happening. EDUCATION AND LOVING PARENTS ARE THE KEY! What do you guys and gals think?

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The needs of the many out way the needs of the few, or the one.




[This message has been edited by KNIGHT (edited April 21, 1999).]
 
Knight,

Agreed.

On the morning show here in Phoenix, a caller stated that discipline has to start in kindergarten... I would submit that it starts much earlier: in the home! With real parents, with real convictions, and real self-discipline themselves. It is impossible to teach something that one is not, unless it is acting! ;) Then you have to account for the free agency of the child. There is a point in their lives when they have the right to stand for their decisions and face the consequences. Many times, as parents, we've just got to let them go with the understanding that we have done, in the spirit of love, all that we can do, and that their life is their own.

This same caller also speculated that Littleton would have to raze the school building and build another so that these students are not subjected to unnecessary emotional trauma. As I interpreted this statement: "Let's make our children emotionally weaker."

How about providing counciling for those who need/want it?

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John/az

"Just because something is popular, does not make it right."



[This message has been edited by John/az2 (edited April 21, 1999).]
 
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