paddling_man
New member
"Scenario : You are fishing off the shore at an isolated lake in the mountains, in the distance you see a man approaching you."
Been there many, many times. Lots of solo hiking. Ex-girlfriend did the AT solo the year we broke up. Me, I'm too lazy. Maybe why she left me. Most of my backcountry has been limited to solo trips of only 3-4 days. Lots of 3-4 day solo backcountry trips though.
"You are openly carrying."
Cool. Sometimes I OC. Often in the woods. Usually CC in the city but that is a different debate.
"He has no apparent weapons, and is walking rapidly, but not in a necessarily threatening manner."
We call that hiking. Most people who hike outside of a city park do it at a rapid clip. Often zoned into their walk, like a long distance jogger/biker/kayaker. I'm not an adrenaline junkie (though I've been accused...) An endorphin junkie though? Oh, yeah.
"As he gets close to you, you turn to face him, and he continues approaching, closing in closer than 7 yards."
Woods are full of natural trails. Trails made by animals and used later by people. This is all still VERY normal for the true backwoods. At least in my experience in the southeastern mountains, southwestern desert mountains, pacific northwest and northern woods.
"You tell him to stop, he continues approaching, as if he did not hear you."
Let's repeat that last part... "as if he did not hear you." And, maybe he didn't? The reasons are myriad. Hard of hearing (me) and he didn't understand you? Non-english speaking and didn't understand you? Nowhere in the above scenario has the OP discussed engaging any body language that would indicate the person-in-question stop. No raised hands. Also, he says "tell him;" not yelling, redfaced and gesturing. The guy is in a zone? You hike long enough and get into an endorphin high, your pulse is pounding in your ears, you hear your own respiration and you are walking at a rapid clip.
All you did was "tell him to stop." One time... you are armed and he is "non-threatening."
The OP does not say whether it is day or night... we might safely assume day since he says the person-in-question is approaching from a distance. Still, I won't assume, though I believe we safely could.
Now, you are out fishing at an isolated mountain lake. Everything above has happened...
Do you feel threatened? I wouldn't. Maybe you would. I feel more threatened - I'm CONVINCED I'm more threatened - on a routine basis in urban environments. Still, I am *not* allowed to legally draw and/or shoot someone in the situation above nor in an urban environment with no more evidence than the above. Does this "rapidly walking" "non-threatening" person have on earbud/iphones?? Heck, all we've done to alert the person thus far is to "tell him to stop." You turned to face him and mouthed something from 21 feet away.
Some people say "hello" when passing in the woods. Other people respect that folks have gone out of their way to get away from people by going into the middle of the woods and attempt to avoid disturbing them by keeping quiet and passing on by. Particularly fishermen!
If, for some odd reason - clearly not your intuition, since you've stated he appears "non-threatening" - you feel the need for action: RUN. RUN AWAY. RUN FAST AND HARD. CLIMB A TREE.
Does that seem extreme? Does it seem silly? Not nearly as the next quote from the OP.
If you feel embarrassment at the idea of running from this "walking rapidly, but not in a necessarily threatening manner" person in the woods - this person who, in my experience in the woods, would not be indicating anything unusual in their behavior... If you feel embarrassment that running is too extreme, then I suggest that:
"You draw your weapon and point it at him while yelling at him to stop."
... is entirely too extreme.
The OP has NOT satisfied the need to retreat from this non-threatening source before drawing down on someone.
"He continues approaching."
Whoa. After all of the above - and I strongly feel that the OP, as directed in his quotes, DID NOT satisfy the requirements to threaten someone with deadly force and could / should be criminally prosecuted and not be allowed to wander society with a firearm or a 4,000 moving vehicle - the person continues approaching?! Well, heck yes he is a threat and shoot him graveyard dead!
(Deep breath.)
Seriously though... as long as we follow the OP's quote line word for word and not throw in our own variables, he did NOT satisfy the legal - heck, I think even the reasonable - requirements of the situation before he drew a firearm and pointed it in a deadly manner at another.
If the OP felt that frightened and apprehensive, then run, run run. Does that seem silly to you? Yeah, it does to me, too.
If the OP had felt threatened by this person "walking rapidly, but not in a necessarily threatening manner" - AND the OP had begun to run... AND THE person began to chase him. Then, yeah. We gotta problem in alpine-lake-land. Heck, we gotta made for tv movie. Shoot 'em graveyard dead! Climb a tree? They start climbing up after you? Graveyard dead, baby.
What the OP describes though at the stage of the drawing the gun - things really don't warrant it in the direct quotes based on typical behavior of folks out hiking and fishing. Drawing the gun was without good cause, at least IMHO. The judge/jury can make that determination if the OPs situation was actual rather than hypothetical. The person-in-question - *after the gun was drawn* and the OP yelled rather than a single "tell him to stop" - continuing to advance?? Well, heck yeah a threat. Though the OP would have made so many assumptions of threat without evidence prior to the illegal aiming of a firearm at the PIQ, wow.
"In the woods things aren't the same. When you approach people or camps you make verbal contact." Approaching a camp in the dark? Absolutely. Trail hiking in the day? Not necessarily so at all. Again, other people respect that folks have gone out of their way to get away from people by going into the middle of the woods and attempt to avoid disturbing them by keeping quiet and passing on by. Particularly fishermen!
I wouldn't expect someone who is afraid for their life to be so concerned with the law that they put themselves in jeopardy. The old, judged by 12 rather than carried by 6. No doubt.
I also wouldn't like to share the woods with anyone, based exactly on the word-for-word quotes, who felt like drawing on someone based on those above quotes was truly warranted.
Been there many, many times. Lots of solo hiking. Ex-girlfriend did the AT solo the year we broke up. Me, I'm too lazy. Maybe why she left me. Most of my backcountry has been limited to solo trips of only 3-4 days. Lots of 3-4 day solo backcountry trips though.
"You are openly carrying."
Cool. Sometimes I OC. Often in the woods. Usually CC in the city but that is a different debate.
"He has no apparent weapons, and is walking rapidly, but not in a necessarily threatening manner."
We call that hiking. Most people who hike outside of a city park do it at a rapid clip. Often zoned into their walk, like a long distance jogger/biker/kayaker. I'm not an adrenaline junkie (though I've been accused...) An endorphin junkie though? Oh, yeah.
"As he gets close to you, you turn to face him, and he continues approaching, closing in closer than 7 yards."
Woods are full of natural trails. Trails made by animals and used later by people. This is all still VERY normal for the true backwoods. At least in my experience in the southeastern mountains, southwestern desert mountains, pacific northwest and northern woods.
"You tell him to stop, he continues approaching, as if he did not hear you."
Let's repeat that last part... "as if he did not hear you." And, maybe he didn't? The reasons are myriad. Hard of hearing (me) and he didn't understand you? Non-english speaking and didn't understand you? Nowhere in the above scenario has the OP discussed engaging any body language that would indicate the person-in-question stop. No raised hands. Also, he says "tell him;" not yelling, redfaced and gesturing. The guy is in a zone? You hike long enough and get into an endorphin high, your pulse is pounding in your ears, you hear your own respiration and you are walking at a rapid clip.
All you did was "tell him to stop." One time... you are armed and he is "non-threatening."
The OP does not say whether it is day or night... we might safely assume day since he says the person-in-question is approaching from a distance. Still, I won't assume, though I believe we safely could.
Now, you are out fishing at an isolated mountain lake. Everything above has happened...
Do you feel threatened? I wouldn't. Maybe you would. I feel more threatened - I'm CONVINCED I'm more threatened - on a routine basis in urban environments. Still, I am *not* allowed to legally draw and/or shoot someone in the situation above nor in an urban environment with no more evidence than the above. Does this "rapidly walking" "non-threatening" person have on earbud/iphones?? Heck, all we've done to alert the person thus far is to "tell him to stop." You turned to face him and mouthed something from 21 feet away.
Some people say "hello" when passing in the woods. Other people respect that folks have gone out of their way to get away from people by going into the middle of the woods and attempt to avoid disturbing them by keeping quiet and passing on by. Particularly fishermen!
If, for some odd reason - clearly not your intuition, since you've stated he appears "non-threatening" - you feel the need for action: RUN. RUN AWAY. RUN FAST AND HARD. CLIMB A TREE.
Does that seem extreme? Does it seem silly? Not nearly as the next quote from the OP.
If you feel embarrassment at the idea of running from this "walking rapidly, but not in a necessarily threatening manner" person in the woods - this person who, in my experience in the woods, would not be indicating anything unusual in their behavior... If you feel embarrassment that running is too extreme, then I suggest that:
"You draw your weapon and point it at him while yelling at him to stop."
... is entirely too extreme.
The OP has NOT satisfied the need to retreat from this non-threatening source before drawing down on someone.
"He continues approaching."
Whoa. After all of the above - and I strongly feel that the OP, as directed in his quotes, DID NOT satisfy the requirements to threaten someone with deadly force and could / should be criminally prosecuted and not be allowed to wander society with a firearm or a 4,000 moving vehicle - the person continues approaching?! Well, heck yes he is a threat and shoot him graveyard dead!
(Deep breath.)
Seriously though... as long as we follow the OP's quote line word for word and not throw in our own variables, he did NOT satisfy the legal - heck, I think even the reasonable - requirements of the situation before he drew a firearm and pointed it in a deadly manner at another.
If the OP felt that frightened and apprehensive, then run, run run. Does that seem silly to you? Yeah, it does to me, too.
If the OP had felt threatened by this person "walking rapidly, but not in a necessarily threatening manner" - AND the OP had begun to run... AND THE person began to chase him. Then, yeah. We gotta problem in alpine-lake-land. Heck, we gotta made for tv movie. Shoot 'em graveyard dead! Climb a tree? They start climbing up after you? Graveyard dead, baby.
What the OP describes though at the stage of the drawing the gun - things really don't warrant it in the direct quotes based on typical behavior of folks out hiking and fishing. Drawing the gun was without good cause, at least IMHO. The judge/jury can make that determination if the OPs situation was actual rather than hypothetical. The person-in-question - *after the gun was drawn* and the OP yelled rather than a single "tell him to stop" - continuing to advance?? Well, heck yeah a threat. Though the OP would have made so many assumptions of threat without evidence prior to the illegal aiming of a firearm at the PIQ, wow.
"In the woods things aren't the same. When you approach people or camps you make verbal contact." Approaching a camp in the dark? Absolutely. Trail hiking in the day? Not necessarily so at all. Again, other people respect that folks have gone out of their way to get away from people by going into the middle of the woods and attempt to avoid disturbing them by keeping quiet and passing on by. Particularly fishermen!
I wouldn't expect someone who is afraid for their life to be so concerned with the law that they put themselves in jeopardy. The old, judged by 12 rather than carried by 6. No doubt.
I also wouldn't like to share the woods with anyone, based exactly on the word-for-word quotes, who felt like drawing on someone based on those above quotes was truly warranted.