8shot357 I don't think I have the capability to quote on here, but to try and answer your question "Why a Pit-Bull?" markj is right the Pit-Bull is an American Breed. If raised properly they are an excellent pet that strongly desires to please it's master. It is irresponsible owners that give the dogs a bad reputation. It is not a Breed for everyone. It is very loyal and has the uncanny ability to know when to protect it's Master and the Master's property. If raised properly with little training and a lot of exercise it is very intelligent and friendly. It's the people that make these dogs bad. They really can be a great Pet I promise you. And markj...a cattle prod is an excellent idea!
Scenario Question
- Thread starter Ishyid
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Shootin Chef
New member
I never understand some of the responses to these questions.
Walk somewhere else?
Why? You have just as much right to walk down the sidewalk or through a park un-harassed as the next person.
At what point do you stop going "somewhere else" and letting people get away with breaking the law and making the world an unsavory place to live in and start holding them responsible for their actions?
Fear of retribution is understandable, but again, where is the line? I would like to think that any owner who's dog I have to put down because it's attempting to do serious harm to me is going to understand that I'm prepared to defend myself in the face of extreme danger, including him/her.
"Get a Taser"
A real Taser costs 2-3 times what a handgun does, and the budget models costs about the same as a quality handgun.
Most people mean a stun gun when they say Taser and they are two different things entirely. A stun gun requires you to get within arms reach of your target, and using that on a vicious dog does not appeal to me personally, I don't know about anyone else.
Bear Spray
a viable option, but what's the point if I'm already carrying concealed? I could use bear spray in the same situations I could use my concealed weapon. How many weapons do you want to carry?
I'm not saying you should go blowing away every grandmother's yappy pomeranian but why do we bother jumping through the hoops to get permits to have our constitutional rights to defend ourselves if we don't exercise that right?
I love my dog, I love most dogs, and it's not the dog's fault but unfortunately the dog has to take the consequences of it's actions, even if those actions are dictated by how poor the owner raised it.
Same could be said of some criminals and their parents I suppose.
Just my thoughts on the matter
Chef
Walk somewhere else?
Why? You have just as much right to walk down the sidewalk or through a park un-harassed as the next person.
At what point do you stop going "somewhere else" and letting people get away with breaking the law and making the world an unsavory place to live in and start holding them responsible for their actions?
Fear of retribution is understandable, but again, where is the line? I would like to think that any owner who's dog I have to put down because it's attempting to do serious harm to me is going to understand that I'm prepared to defend myself in the face of extreme danger, including him/her.
"Get a Taser"
A real Taser costs 2-3 times what a handgun does, and the budget models costs about the same as a quality handgun.
Most people mean a stun gun when they say Taser and they are two different things entirely. A stun gun requires you to get within arms reach of your target, and using that on a vicious dog does not appeal to me personally, I don't know about anyone else.
Bear Spray
a viable option, but what's the point if I'm already carrying concealed? I could use bear spray in the same situations I could use my concealed weapon. How many weapons do you want to carry?
I'm not saying you should go blowing away every grandmother's yappy pomeranian but why do we bother jumping through the hoops to get permits to have our constitutional rights to defend ourselves if we don't exercise that right?
I love my dog, I love most dogs, and it's not the dog's fault but unfortunately the dog has to take the consequences of it's actions, even if those actions are dictated by how poor the owner raised it.
Same could be said of some criminals and their parents I suppose.
Just my thoughts on the matter
Chef
I would carry OC Spray as well as a gun.
I keep reading of recommendations to carry Bear Spray. However, those cannisters are larger than OC spray, and although I have not seen a bear spray cannister I think they are too large for most carry.
Anyone recommending bear spray, how do you carry it? Do you have a belt holster? I would not want to carry anything in my hand.
One friend had to spray a dog, and it only took one squirt.
Regards,
Jerry
I keep reading of recommendations to carry Bear Spray. However, those cannisters are larger than OC spray, and although I have not seen a bear spray cannister I think they are too large for most carry.
Anyone recommending bear spray, how do you carry it? Do you have a belt holster? I would not want to carry anything in my hand.
One friend had to spray a dog, and it only took one squirt.
Regards,
Jerry
LOL
What's a tractor?
I live in Vegas.Next time I'm back in MN, I'll have to go to Fleet Farm.
I love Fleet Farm "The Man's Mall" WWW.fleetfarm.com
Exactly, and it's a lot safer than spraying bullets around your neighborhood at a threat that in all likelihood you could have gotten the better of with your feet. Imagine "scenario 1" happens to you and you draw down on a dog that may or may not attack your dog, and you miss that dog and skip a bullet into a neighbor's kid. Or "scenario 2" you are around a bunch of other people, and you draw down and shoot that dog that "snapped" at your dog. You better not miss and skip a bullet into a bystander. More than that, there's no reason to even shoot it. Seriously guys we're talking about dogs, maybe I'm just young and spry still but I'm pretty convinced I could get the bulge on the average dog at the dog park with my boot. For me to shoot a dog in a public place it would have to be attacking a human. I'm not firing a pistol in my neighborhood with humans in it over a dogfight.
Agreed, you have the right to do as you wish. This is America. But if you are encountering aggressive dogs every time you go out it kinda makes sense to find a new area. Or carry some pepper spray and have some fun. But shooting a bunch of dogs in a populated areas seems like a pretty dangerous thing to do.
We have one pitbull in the neighborhood that is constantly loose and wanders around. Actually he's gone now, proly either got run over or found his way to the pound, his owners refused to keep him on a leash and he had no tag to call. Anyway I used to see him while out walking my dogs. He was the friendliest dog I've ever encountered on a walk, always just wanted to play. But the first time or two I saw him coming it was intimidating, he was a big, solid dog. But I darn sure didn't pull out my pistol guys!
Shootin Chef
New member
What in the world do you conceal carry? A Glock 18?
I would like to think that anyone who conceal carries for personal defense reasons has the ability to put two rounds into a large dog at 25 feet and closing.
Read it again, the dog is closingin a fearful threatening way.. You are now feared for your life and safety, which is grounds for defending yourself in most states. Lets not forget you're shooting from higher than the dog is tall so you're shooting with the ground as a backstop.
Ricochet should really be the least of your worries, with more focus on hitting the target. Hollow points being the preferred ccw round should relieve your fear even further.
The K9 unit of your local police department would like to have a word with you.
In all seriousness, what if you miss with your kick? What if the dog is faster than you and grabs hold of your ankle and pulls you down? I have a corgi and he snatches flies out of the air he's so fast, I can't begin to imagine what a pitbull, could pull off.
Did you read the scenario?
In the first the dog isn't being intimidating, it's being threatening. In the second it flat out attacks.
That's not Marmaduke running up all big and playful.
To play devils advocate, depending on the situation, the spray can be more effective at stopping an attack than bullets.
I've seen cases of large dogs approaching as close as 5-10 feet without showing overt signs of aggression. That's far to close to expect to be able to draw and shoot before the dog was on you, but you would not be justified to draw a pistol just because the dog was approaching.
You would however be well within the law to pull out your pepper spray and be holding it at the ready. In addition, in most states, pepperspray is not considered deadly force and is therefore legally easier to justify when you use it.
I'm sure you probably could take on a average dog, but what about a larger than average?
My grandfather bred Rottweilers for years, and his Brother in law had one of his dogs back in the 90's. One day it ripped/chewed through a chainlink fence, and busted through a wood privacy fence to get out into town.
Not a big deal, small town everybody knew the dog and it not aggressive at all, except it got hit by a guy doing 45 in a nissan maxima. Totalled the car, the dog got some bruises.
A police department bought another of my grandfathers dogs to train for their K9 program. While they were there looking at the dogs, one of them told us a story about why he prefers Rottweilers for police duty.
Apparently one of their officers was involved in a struggle with a suspect and in the process the suspect managed to get the officers weapon, and was about to shoot the officer. The Rottweiler was still locked in the back of the squad car, but broke through the glass to jump out the car's window and attacked the suspect, clamping down on the arm holding the gun, and actually severing that arm just below the elbow.
Now that is one good idea. I have used diesel fuel in a squirt bottle while working in a salvage yard for the wasps. Killed em in flight.
Maybe so, but to knowingly go into an area that you or yours may be harmed in is well, not so smart IMHO. It would take a lot to get me to run into a burning building when I could just go around it and stay safe. But hey, who am I to give advise? Walk where you wish and good luck to you sir.
Same as a Tractor Supply
them prods pack a punch, used one when I worked at the pig palace in south Omaha, would stop a 500 lb boar right now. Never stick a horse tho, they tend to jump into the shock, is why shockers and race horses did so well and yep I do know about that we raced all over this country.I once used a baseball on a dog, he went after me while delivering papers, hit him hard, regret it now but at teh time I thought it a good idea. Picking up a dead dog wasnt so much fun, the owner was watching and it went bad from there as I was 13.
There Chef, I read it again. The aggressive dog is maybe going to attack your dog. It's being aggressive towards your DOG. I'm not "feared" at all for my safety, though I can see a dogfight coming. I'm saying I don't think that's any reason to pull a pistol in the middle of town. Out in the country maybe. The point is that it's unsafe to discharge a pistol in a neighborhood. That's a fact. I think you're being a little casual about firearm safety. It isn't like the movies where if you miss that's the end of it. When you miss the bullet goes somewhere and is still dangerous. Even if it zips thru a dog it can still hurt somwbody. You need to consider some things:
People get excited and people miss. IF you have a good backstop and no people around, no big deal. In a neighborhood, kinda a hazard.
Um, exactly. The bullet doesn't stop when it hits the pavement at an angle, it ricochets. Go out and shoot the ground 25 feet away somewhere you can see the dirt. You'll notice that it will ricochet most of the time. I've done a whole heap of shooting at stuff on the ground in front of a backstop, and that's what happens.
In a neighborhood you damn well better be worried about a ricochet, especially when shooting at the ground. The bullet will ricochet if you miss the dog. Hollow points ricochet like anything else, so no it doesn't relieve any fear at all. What if you skip a bullet into a person? Guess who's going to jail for it?
Guys I could care less about killing dogs, I'm all for it. If they are attacking you or another human, then yes protect yourself however you can. But shooting to protect your dog I think is extreme because of the risk of a ricochet in a city. It is dangerous to discharge a firearm in city limits, which is why it's illegal. I'm also saying that under normal circumstances, including the two scenarios posted, pulling a pistol would be completely irrational and unsafe. Neither animal in the scenarios are about to cause harm to a person. Key word. Your dog is not a person. If you run a serious risk of having your dog getting into a dogfight where you walk, get something that will be safe to use around the folks in your neighborhood (like pepper spray). I have two little girls, I can't imagine if one of them were to catch a bullet while playing in the front yard over a flippin dog.
Ok, I'm not talking about fighting trained police dogs. I'm talking about your average, run of the mill neighborhood dog. If I miss my kick, I'll kick again. I have 2 fists as well. It isn't going to drag my ankle down, it's going to mind my kick. In general, I think I can take the average dog. If a huge Rotty or pit approaches me or my child with intent to attack then yes, I'll shoot it. But that's not the typical situation and not what the scenarios in the original thread are about. There is not a single thing in either of the two scenarios that justifies pulling a pistol.
Shootin Chef
New member
Rburch
I was just commenting on the scenarios given, 5-10 feet closed with a unfamiliar, aggressive breed will have my hand on my weapon with my body ready to twist and draw... but I'm the paranoid type. I'm not saying OC/Bear spray is not a useful item, I'm just taken aback by all the people who just allow others to break the law and not defend themselves with the tools they have.
Ok, fine, I'll play along sir. Lets just use Washington state since that's where the OP is from.
Which would you prefer my good sir? The dog to be property or part of the family? Either way, by law, you're allowed to defend it from, among other things, assault/murder, since most dogs don't stop attacking when you go down, it could very well be murdered. Doesn't matter if your dog is a person or not, it's still well within your rights to defend it with your weapon in Washington, as this case resides there.
When is it ever 100% safe to discharge a firearm? How many range accidents happen every year? How many times does some unfortunate person get shot because, despite all precaution taken, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time?
As for ricochets, you go ahead and be worried all you want to. It's your choice to do as you see fit, but I can tell you that the law of averages and the laws of physics are against your chances of hitting someone with a ricochet fired at a dog, in a park.
Are you sure you went back and read it again my good fellow?
Seems to me like you just nullified your own argument sir?
I was just commenting on the scenarios given, 5-10 feet closed with a unfamiliar, aggressive breed will have my hand on my weapon with my body ready to twist and draw... but I'm the paranoid type. I'm not saying OC/Bear spray is not a useful item, I'm just taken aback by all the people who just allow others to break the law and not defend themselves with the tools they have.
Ok, fine, I'll play along sir. Lets just use Washington state since that's where the OP is from.Which would you prefer my good sir? The dog to be property or part of the family? Either way, by law, you're allowed to defend it from, among other things, assault/murder, since most dogs don't stop attacking when you go down, it could very well be murdered. Doesn't matter if your dog is a person or not, it's still well within your rights to defend it with your weapon in Washington, as this case resides there.
When is it ever 100% safe to discharge a firearm? How many range accidents happen every year? How many times does some unfortunate person get shot because, despite all precaution taken, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time?
As for ricochets, you go ahead and be worried all you want to. It's your choice to do as you see fit, but I can tell you that the law of averages and the laws of physics are against your chances of hitting someone with a ricochet fired at a dog, in a park.
No, you're talking about going to fisticuffs with dogs that are unpredictable and aggressive, if not downright trained to fight to the death. At least a K9 dog is trained not to kill you unless it really has no other option.
Or, it's just going to get even angrier at you and attack with even more ferocity.
It's not?
Are you sure you went back and read it again my good fellow?
*bold my emphasis*
Seems to me like you just nullified your own argument sir?
Thanks all who have replied. I've read some really interesting replys. But something that keeps comeong up is drawing and shooting in your neighborhood not being safe because of to many hazards and the risk of injureing someone else. All this talk has raised a question that I would like to ask.
Take away the aggressive dog and replace it with a human
Someone with intentions to harm you. Are you not going to draw and fire when this guy is chargeing weilding a knife or firearm in fear of hitting a inocent bystander or launching a non well placed bullet in through a window because you are in a well populated area?
Take away the aggressive dog and replace it with a human
Someone with intentions to harm you. Are you not going to draw and fire when this guy is chargeing weilding a knife or firearm in fear of hitting a inocent bystander or launching a non well placed bullet in through a window because you are in a well populated area?
Absolutely. It's a totally different situation. That's a threat towards you, not your dog. Totally different. I'm not sure how I could be more clear. The scenarios posted are about aggression towards your dog. Why would you fear for your safety in either scenario? The aggression in both cases is towards an animal. Until a human is being attacked by a dog, there is no need to shoot because of the risk. BUT, as soon as a human's well being is involved then the benefit outweighs the risk. Unless you have a solid backstop, and the street is a far cry from it, you have no business discharging a firearm in a populated place over a dogfight. Dog-human fight yes, two dogs no.
No, you go back and read it. The important part is the sentence just after the ones you quoted: "You are worried most of all feared for your own pooch." Your pooch. My entire argument is that the risk of injury to your dog is not worth the risk to human health by firing into a crowded area. Especially at the dog park in the second scenario!!! There's people all around!
That's all. I'm not saying the aggressive dog is in the right and I'm not saying you can't/shouldn't protect yourself. I'm saying there are better ways to do it than shooting in a public place over a threat that is not likely to hurt a person. Also I'm saying that I would not even consider drawing on either dog in either scenario, and drawing on dog #2 may very well get you arrested for brandishing, which I would agree with. If I was at a dog park and my dog snapped at another dog and the guy pulled a gun, you can bet I'm pressing charges. You'd have to be a lose cannon to even consider pulling your pistol in that instance.
Hey Ishyid, so what was the outcome for both scenarios? You say these both happened to you...I'm gonna guess that each was resolved without incident and that you didn't pull your pistol on either dog.
Shootin Chef
New member
Really? How do you know? It never says that. It says you are afraid for your dog, doesn't say the aggressive dog is targeting just your dog in scenario #1. Could you not be afraid for your dog when you're the one in danger? What if you're both in danger? Who says the other dog will stop at just your dog? Will you wait until your dog is dead or dying before you draw and shoot?
Let us not forget that the law is on your side in both situations, in Washington state.
So risk of injuring a crowd for your child is? So you're suggesting that your daughter's life is more important than someone's dog? A dog they may consider to be like their own child for whatever reason?
Just because a dog isn't a person, doesn't mean it's any less special to the owner than your child is to you.
Think about it from the owners perspective,
Chef
*edit*
He already stated he didn't own a gun at that time.
That, sir, is EXACTLY what I'm saying. Anybody's life is more important that any dog's life. People are more important than animals.
Well therein lies the error. A dog is NOT as special as a child. You must not have kids. Surely you have a mother/father,brother/sister/wife/best friend etc. If you had to chose a life to lose, which would it be? Your answer better be "the dog's life."
And he also stated he still has his dog and presumably his health. He didn't need a gun to keep them.
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Onward Allusion
New member
Four legged animals are very different from the two-legged variety in that they do not operate with malicious intent. Four legged ones may want to eat you or attack you because they see you as a threat. Once met with strong resistance or pain, they will very likely go elsewhere for their meal or realize that they've run across an alpha animal. Hence bear spray or pepper spray will suffice. Think about all the threads concerning "What should I carry for bear in the woods?"... The best answer is always bear spray first and a 357/44 Mag second.
Two legged animals have a bunch of emotional garbage attached. They may be out to get you not just for the "food" (money) but may also want to hurt you for the sake of stomping, raping, killing someone for power's sake. That is why two legged creatures are so much more dangerous and deserved to be stopped on the spot with deadly force when they pose a threat to you or a loved one.
thunderkyss
New member
To me, this is the key. Same thing in the OP...
Nothing happened. Dogs show off & puff their chest all the time, it's what they do. Just because a dog looked at you funny, does not give you the right to shoot it. If there are witnesses, make sure you or your dog is being attacked before you fire.
If it were me, I'd have pulled out the cell, & called the pound.
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