Scenario 2: What would you do?

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Pat29, if you want to die for your stuff, that is fine. There is nothing wrong with that if you make that choice yourself. That is the beauty of this country. I choose not to decide in that manner. The choice hopefully will be yours when the time comes and hopefully I will have the same chance to decide should it come for me. What will suck is being in a situation where somebody else decides my life is worth destroying for some material items.

Of course, when somebody pulls a knife or gun on you and demands a wallet, the situation at that point really has nothing to do with your wallet, does it? At that point, your life is being threatened, the wallet only being the reason for the bad guy being in your face. You aren't defending your wallet at that point, but your life.
 
I think this is a very bad scenerio to be in honestly.

First off, when you open that door, theres a good chance they are going to see you, or at least hear you. If you try to retreat, they are probably going to hear or see you. If you drop the groceries to draw, they are going to hear/see you.

So no matter what, you are going to be undergunned.

With that being said, my response would be to grab my CCW, drop groceries, get low, and engage the BG holding the shotgun, with ATLEAST 4 rounds COM. No warning, no challenge. No reason to even give him a chance. He is holding a weapon in my home, i have no good cover to retreat to, so if i can beat him on the draw, then i will. If not, then i am dead.

If i score hits on BG1, and he goes down, then its on to #2, and my tactic would be to close to my nearest light cover/concealment, and hold him at gunpoint. If he moves aggressivly, then engage him. If not, then stay in a position with atleast some cover/concealment, tac reload, and call the cops. Keep an eye on the stairs in case there are more of them, and incase they got my rifles as well as my shotgun.

Like i said, i dont see this a being an easy scenerio. If you retreat, then they will have a clean shot at your back, and since you are a witness, they might take that shot. If you challenge the one with a shotgun, and he reacts fast enough, your dead. Youre hand is forced.

I.G.B.
 
Is nothing worth dying for?
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Plenty of things are worth dying for. My wife is worth dying for. Our freedom and way of life are worth dying for. My 18-year-old insured TV is not worth dying for.

M1911
 
A careful reading of my post will show that I was not arguing that a television set is worth dying for, but rather what is worth dying for is taking a stand against the criminals who have said that nothing today is sacred, nothing is safe. The fact that they are in my home illegally, with a shotgun no less, in the commission of the crime is as much an act of violence against my person, my dignity, and my home, as a violent assault would be. Accordingly, I would respond with appropriate force.
 
Since your stuff ain't worth defending, send it to me. If I saw some bastard in my house with a gun, I'd make them stop it.
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In short, nothing in your house---bar your loved ones---is worth dying for.

And if you take comfort in your perceived ability, under stress, to make all the right decisions on cue, consider this: Assuming you survive the encounter and the intruders do not, is anything in your house worth the cost of your defense in civil court? Because you will go.

In the above CQC scenario, things can get awful nasty mighty quick, and you certainly have the option to act on your gut-level instinct. But wouldn't you rather opt to defuse and de-escalate the situation by backing out, not knowing full well what the hell was going on, although it seemed like nothing good?

Yeah, Texas law may give you carte blanche in this case, and allow for what arguably amounts to a "discretionary" homicide (although goodness knows that many critical variables have been left out of the picture, without which I cannot realistically predict what can or should be done. A sudden, threatening movement on their part will unquestionably earn them each a ticket to Mozambique; but that doesn't appear to be the case here. They could be cops, for all I know, moving things about after nabbing a burglar.) But if you are able to retreat without a fight---furthermore, if the DA, the prosectutor, the judge and the jury are bound to see it that way---then that's what you really ought to do. Never mind your territorial paroxysms.

Then again, it's your time and money.
 
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The pages of history are full of dead heroes.

While your honor and dignity may require you to defend your tv and dvd player, a wise man would better choose his battles. Drawing from concealment, against an armed intruder with an unknown number of accomplices, is not the smartest decision. While your intentions are honorable, there is no reason to force yourself into this situation based on some misguided sense of honor. Saving your own skin doesn't make you any less of a man, hero or patriot. Sometimes, even the best of us have to retreat.
 
Better to be a dead hero then a living slave.

By your logic, the Founding Fathers fought and died to be free from taxation, in actuality, taxation far less offensive then that paid by the average Londoner of the period.

The physical circumstances of the fight were immaterial, it was a battle over principle.
 
Your comparison between the our liberation from the English and defending your television is ridicilous and is meant for nothing more than dramatic effect. Think of it this way: a war is nothing more than a group of battles. Do you think that our founding fathers sent the troops into battle to "do or die" no matter what the odds? Do you think that we never retreated when the odds weren't in our favor? If you do, you need to go back and retake your elementary school history class.

In order to win the war, sometimes you fight, sometimes you retreat and sometimes (gasp!) you don' fight at all. A smart man picks his battles wisely and knows when to fight, when to retreat and when to provide recon. Using our scenario as an example, you have walked into your own home to discover AT LEAST two men robbing the place. AT LEAST one of them is armed. Your hands are full of packages and your firearm is concealed. The man that is obviously armed is carrying a shotgun, which means his aim doesn't have to be all that great to put you in a grave. Are there other BGs in the house? What about out in the car acting as lookout? Since you know that your family is not at home there is nothing in the house worth dying for. Are you so fast a draw that you can draw and shoot a man who has a weapon in his hand? Doubtful (most of us aren't.) Even if you do hit him, what about his friend? What about his other friend around the corner that you didn't see.

By retreating to a safe location and calling in renforcements, not only do you save your own butt, but you put yourself is a better position to get physical descriptions, liscence plate, vehicle descriptions and direction of travel after leaving the scene. Still itchin' to get into a gunfight? A quick retreat allows you to find cover (not concealment, like your interior walls) and return fire from a fortified position. This is far preferable that standing in the front door and shooting it out like an idiot.

Do you actually think that dying in your front door is going to make some grand statement about "taking back the streets" or defending our turf? Unlikely. Instead, it will be reported in the news as a home invasion gone wrong, and the media and anti-gunners will use it as an example of another gung-ho fool who got himself killed trying to kill some poor, disadvantaged youths who were forced to defend themselves.

Wise men tread lightly where fools rush in (or something like that)
 
First, I'd take the frag grenades out of my grocery bag and throw one in...ok, just kidding :).

I'd drop the groceries, pull my CCW while retreating to cover, then take out the cell phone and dial 911. I'm not going to try to draw on and engage a guy with a shotgun in his hands, especially when I don't know whom else might be either inside the house or outside the house. Just because I only see 2 guys, that doesn't mean there aren't more. So, I get the heck out, dial 911, and continue to move and retreat.
 
Tag: Do not lecture me about history. The Founding Fathers were fighting over property rights essentially, but more then that, they were fighting over intangibles, principles. That was my point. Oh, and by the way, the odds were NEVER in the Americans' favor during the Revolution. One would think that a history expert such as yourself would have recognized that.

Itgoesboom makes a good point, you are already engaged, with little chance for a tactical withdrawl. This scenario is a sticky one, and there is no need to vilify those who would act in their best judgment to engage a threat to their life, who is standing no more then 20 feet away with a shotgun. Possessions notwithstanding, I am in fear for my life, so I will take any appropriate measures to neutralize that threat. If that means drawing and engaging the first threat while he is in condition white, so be it.

And for your "there may be hordes of bgs around" argument, any lookout outside would probably notice you on the way in, or the way out. It would suck to get shot in the back by the thug behind you, while retreating from your house and any cover you may have had now, wouldn't it?
 
Why does everyone think the TV is the first to go???

Mine is one wheels, and is 60" of viewing pleasure...It is insured, and I would get an even better replacement for the money...

I see a lot of people on this thread state they would retreat and observe...Certainly call the law to catch them, but engaging when they (untill they saw you) were not a direct threat to you to begin with...

Of course the natural (knee-jerk) reaction would be: "HOW DARE YOU BREAK INTO MY HOME AND TRY TO STEAL MY STUFF!"

This is something we should all come to expect, and should all attempt to quell when the real deal happens...

The most important thing to remember is that you DO have the means to deal with any dangerous threat to you in the most decisive way...Thats half the battle...

The hard part is that that does not mean you are invincible, even people like Massad Ayoob understand that its just a matter of mind over matter...Someone breaks into your home armed...They have already made the decision, that no matter what happens, if they hear or see a threat, they don't hesitate...

I can almost guarantee that in a senario like this, the first gunshots are going to come from the bad guys...Second, if you're not quick enough, you may be in trouble...

Third...Nothing in your home that is not living and breathing is worth taking a life...That does not mean if it shoots first, all bets are off...I can think of a great variety of things to say (and not to say) if that is the outcome...Because if it did happen like that...I would do every thing I could to be the one left standing, all else is secondary...

This is always the hardest thing to realize...And its the hardest thing to let go...Nobody can make a decision for you in this regard...And there is no way to prepare for it...When the time comes, how the thing between your ears works is just as deadly as the thing on your hip...

Remember, and this is not meant to discourage, but the one left standing (and I hope its one of us, in a senario like this) has to live with that decision...And that is not necessarily a bad thing...

Me? I happen to have a hard time with things like this, but I know in the end, if I were you, regardless of the outcome...I'm going home and sleeping in my own bed that night...Thats what makes it easy, regardless of the decision you make...
 
I find it hilarious that you equate your tv being stolen with the struggle for our freedom from the British. This is the point I am trying to make. Its obvious that the only reason you're making this comparison is for dramatic effect. I'll try to leave this out of my future arguments and quit fueling the fire. If you wish, e-mail me offline and I will suggest some reading material you didn't read last semester in American History.

You need to learn to choose your battles a little better. Actions like the ones you're suggesting don't end like they do in the movies. You want to blaze away standing in the front door? Go ahead. You're not gonna miss, right? You'll draw and fire in less than a second, right? You won't fumble your draw, right? One shot and they will drop like flies, right? Your monthly range time has prepared you perfectly for this situation, right? Who needs cover when you're that good.

Think of it this way: if you end up dead, what happens to the BGs? Nothing. They still get your stuff, plus "street cred" for killing a stupid college kid with a gun. Your family struggles because you aren't there to protect them and provide for them. Your principals die with you. But hey, at least you died a man, right? That's really all your talking about; some misguided macho attitude that "real men don't run from a fight." Your a big history buff, huh? What did the British think about the Americans who shot at them from the tree lines and ambushed their processions? They thought they were cowards for not fighting out in the open as had been the traditional way of war for hundreds or thousands of years. Guess its a good thing that our founding fathers weren't afraid of the coward label.

Who's to say you can't still have your principals AND save your own skin? Personally, I would rather live AND help put these guys in jail than die and let them go free. Your not doing society any good by bleeding to death in your doorway. There are other ways to stand up to crime than to square off and draw down with every bad guy you see.

You are right about the BG in the car. He's probably already seen you. Better that you distract yourself with shooting his buddies and make it easier to put one in the back of your head. All those people who say a moving target is harder to hit are fools anyway.

Now please, if you are going to continue this argument, stop trying to compare you tv being stolen to the fight for this country's freedom, or raping and beating innocent women and children. I'm still waiting for you to draw some correlation between your tv and 9-11. :rolleyes:
 
First off, I did not equate the American Revolution and this violent home invasion in scope or magnitude. It's so much more then a television, I didn't ever suggest one take a stupid stand for a tv. I was arguing that principles play into all decisions in life. Besides, while you're obviously a history buff, you must have never heard of the rhetorical device of hyperbole. However, this was not my only reason for bringing up the argument, I was stating that the Founders were not suffering incredibly terrible physical abuse at the hands of the British. Their lives were not threatened to the point that they were forced to fight, they were fighting for principles. If you can't understand the concept of following one's principles in all circumstances, however minor, then I will agree to foregore continuing this line of argument in favor of returning to the issue at hand. But don't patronize me, I don't want to get into a pissing contest over who knows more history.

You need to learn to choose your battles a little better. Actions like the ones you're suggesting don't end like they do in the movies. You want to blaze away standing in the front door? Go ahead. You're not gonna miss, right? You'll draw and fire in less than a second, right? You won't fumble your draw, right? One shot and they will drop like flies, right? Your monthly range time has prepared you perfectly for this situation, right? Who needs cover when you're that good.
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That is completely uncalled for. Did I ever once suggest not taking cover, no. Did I ever suggest that when the SHTF, that everything will go alright, no. I infact made no suggestion as to exactly how to engage the targets, merely that I would rather then taking flight from my home. I left the discussions of the bare bones of how to engage to the more knowledgeable armchair gunfighters her. What guarantees do you have that you will succeed in your plans? It's an uncertain world we live in. Back off with the arrogance buddy.

Throughout this debate your arguments have been characterized by vitriolic attacks on my character, intelligence, age, principles, and arguments. You have put words in my mouth, you have twisted my arguments into straw men, and been condescending, all the while claiming moral superiority. If you want to continue this debate on an intellectual level, when we can discuss issues rather then ad hominem attacks, fine, I'll be here. If you can't defend your principles without stooping to junior high tactics of namecalling, then come back when you grow up.
 
Sorry if you were offended, I'm not used to dealing with people who are so sensitive. Sometimes I use sarcasm with people to demonstrate the outrageousness of their statements. Seems like it worked this time. But don't blame me for taking this path, you're the one that brought up the founding fathers. That was insulting to everyone who had replied that they would retreat, as it implied that they were unpatriotic, cowardly and that the founding fathers would only approve of a full-on assault. Nothing could be further from the truth. Maybe if you had skipped the rhetoric and dealt with the scenario at hand we could have avoided this little disagreement.

I'm glad that you quoted that section of my previous post, because it means I made my point. These are the types of things that have to be considered in every scenario where you choose to use a gun for self defense. Since you won't have time to think about them at the time of the incident, you have to be willing to think about them now. It's Murphy's Law, and if something can go wrong, it will. At best, the scenario gave you a split second to react, since there are multiple assailants and one of them had a gun in hand. Since you are still standing in the door, retreat is the best option.

I took a training class last year, and part of the class was an ATM scenario using Sims guns. I was playing the bank customer approaching the ATM to withdraw some money. As I got up to the ATM, I noticed a BG lurking behind the corner, about 20 ft away. I quickly decided that this was an unsafe situation, and made a quick retreat while keeping an eye on the BG. I drew my pistol while retreating, just in case he came after me. Now, I could have stood my ground on the principal that it was my money in that machine and no one could keep me from it, but I didn't. BTW, everyone that stood their ground and withdrew money ended up shot and killed. I have been through alot of this type of training, and it has helped me understand that you can never be prepared for everything, the odds are usually against you, and sometimes a good defense is the best offense. You should try some Sims or FATS training and you will see what I mean.

It's great to see a young person with such strong convictions in his principals, but you need to temper them with a little common sense. Charging into every situation waving your principals like a banner will do nothing but get you beaten, humiliated or killed.
 
First, I was not offended at all. Besides, it would take a heck of a lot more then that to offend me. I myself enjoy the use of sarcasm, both as a humor style, and to make points. However, your sarcasm was directed at a caricature of my argument, and not the real one. I do believe my point still stands. I was not directly a personal attack at anyone here, but rather the whole idea that in violent confrontations, one must suffer almost anything before using deadly force, a view which I believe contributes to the victimization of our society.

While it is not a sense of false bravado or machismo which prompted my original comment, I am man enough to apologize for any offense given. If you were insulted, for that I apologize. I'm here to engage in rational, albeit somewhat heated discussion. Sometimes youthful enthusiasm is mistaken for arrogance or rashness. While I still stand by my argument, I want to make it clear that I am interested in constructive discussion, and have most definately considered the issue thoughtfully.

To make you happy, I won't even mention the idea that the people in the first two planes on 9/11 likely went along with the hijackers because of a misguided view that "If we go along we won't get killed." But I won't even bring that up. ;) (BtW, this was in no way directed at anyone here, but rather the sheeple in our society.

I value the comments made in your second paragraph, that's what I like to see, a reasonable discussion of the issue. The focus on thinking things through prior to the event is one of the things that drew me to TFL. While I may disagree with your conclusion, I believe we all benefit from a rational discussion.

I appreciate the advice for pursuit of practical training. As soon as my budget and schedule permit (spending lots of time in remedial US history will hurt :D ), I plan to do so. Most of the time in these scenario threads I sit by quietly and observe what the older and wiser have to say. I do enjoy playing devil's advocate, and was trying to make a point that would not attack others, but hopefully prompt some thoughts, and I hope that you look at the article I linked to, it has some great points. There was so much of a non-confrontational attitude portrayed in the thread, I thought I'd spice up the intellectual debate with a few comments. I hope they haven't gotten out of hand on either side.

Lastly, I never intend to charge into any situation half-cocked, waving a suicidal banner of mistaken principles. Far from being a reckless kid, I have devoted more time to studying the great minds of personal defense, from both the legal and tactical side, then most CCW holders I know. I believe that when I do get my CCW, I will be both a concerned citizen with not only street smarts, but a rational argument for why I believe what I believe, and do what I do. I've enjoyed our exchange, and hope that we all may have learned from it. While I firmly stand by my position as strongly as ever, I think the emotion on both sides has gotten out of hand. Let's get back to discussing this lose-lose scenario, shall we?
 
I would touch my communicator and say "beam my up Scotty!"

Seriously….take cover as I draw and then assess the situation. Preferably, don’t let them know you have a gun (let them think your one of the sheeple) your out gunned and will need the element of suprize if they advance on your position.

Attempting a quick draw is the least desirable situation because even in a tie…you loose!
 
Here in Colorado we have the "make my day law".

In your house ANY force is justified and you are immune from criminal and civil prosecution.

In my house these guys would be the unluckiest burglars in the world.

MF with the scatter gun gets scattered then BG with sh*t in pants gets scattered next.

Move inside with big evil grin.
Reload and finish both the BGs off.

Hard pressed on my right.
My center is yielding.
Impossible to maneuver.
Situation excellent, I am attacking!

HS/LD
 
Who can say till it happens, but, I get the feeling my first inclination would be to duck out of there.
Not necessarily from any tactical negotiations standpoint, premeditated or ptherwise, but simply because - holy ___ - there's guys in there with GUNZ!!
Once back outside, I guess I'd draw the gun and the phone (practice that supportside dialing folks!) and assess.
Depending on the day, and how my religious sentiments were holding up, I may or may not go around the otherside to recon.
If they're just stealing my stuff, I can't kill them.
-But that might just be on a count of all the stuff I stole when I was a young and stupid heathen.

Plus, my guess is they're turning tail at this point, and either they're on foot or I've got their tags, so nothing major is going very far.

Major mitigating factor: do I see they've got my firearm(s).

Another way it might go (again, not so much from a what-would-you-do standpoint, more just how I see it unfolding) is for me to weigh that 15 yards against the whiteness of #2's condition and rush him, while #1 decides where he stands and does something with the tv. (Remember Tueller.)
I'm willing to bet I have more H2H training than this guy, and can have him down and hurting before he can bear his weapon.
After that I choose either the CW or shotgun against #1 depending on his mood (most likely the CW, since I know it runs).

Final note, I doubt I could make it through my door with this guy's hand still in the drawer. It takes at least 3 seconds of fumbling to get through a door, even in condition yellow. Most likely I'd have a much clearer idea of who was armed and how serious they were - a view that might last a half-second or so....
 
Some folks have sort of flamed me for being a Ninja / revolution minuteman for my response which included opening fire on these guys, from cover.

My experience with burglars was over 12 years ago in another house we owned being broken into 3 times in 12 months by the same burglar, and nearly surprising them the second time.

You all have heard of armed home invasions right??

most burglars watch the house and try to break in when you are not there, at work or somewhere that you will not return from unpredictably. They do not come armed, let alone with a shotgun that will reduce the amount of booty they can carry out and sell.

There are the home invasion types though who want to find you at home and beat or even kill you, and they try to break in when you are home. I would put the burglars in this case in that category. They are armed and have not picked a time when my regular habits would put me at work. I assume they are looking for me, and will come back. I also assume they are not experts with a firearm who practice twice a week as I do.

I will have the drop on them, I will take cover and engage.
Self preservation is my motive here. Whos to say the next time that they will not ambush me when I get out of my car with my wife and kids.

JMHO YMMV.
 
MASTER BLASTER gave all the good reasons and I could not agree with him more!!

You train, you get a CCW permit, you spend money on a pistol and ammo and range time, you take classes and you practise your draw from concealment. You carry a 'tactical folder' and dream of a smooth tac reload...

You rave endlessly about civil liberties and rights on forums.

You wail that the only way the BATfmen are getting your guns are bullets first.

The moment two little sh*ts come uninvited into your house you pee your pants and run. What happened to back bone and mind set. You want to call the cops and send them in to protect YOUR house. That is sick!

"Well that's their job!" "I could get sued!" "I have a family to think of!"
I'm amazed it was possible to procreate!

You want guys to fly to Afganhistan and "Kick ass."
Crawl into a dark cave and find Bin Laden, when you aren't prepared to protect your own home, imagine if all the courageous men (and women) in the service thought like you.

If it was my wife coming to the door she has standing orders to move as quickly as possible to safety.

I don't have that luxury it is my responsibility to protect my home.

"A righteous man who falters before the wicked is like a murky spring and a polluted well." Proverbs 25:26

"And all the time - such is the tragic comedy of our situation - we continue to clamor for those very qualities we are rendering impossible. We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful."
C.S.Lewis

Now this post may indeed piss some of you off. Good!
Just like my CT instructor pissed me off we he said I button holed doors like a scared rabbit.

Well I have calmed down now.

Flame away.

HS/LD
 
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