Scary Thought

Quoting:

if someone has a knife...back up, warn them, pull your gun.
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If somebody is well within 21ft with a knife and is acting aggressively, I can tell you exactly what I'm going to do: draw and fire center of mass in one smooth motion, no warning, not a word said.

You do NOT always need to warn. If you can, it legally helps some of the time but it's not a requirement.
 
It depends greatly on what your local laws are. Apparently, there are some jurisdicitions in which you're expected to take a severe beating before you're justified in pulling a gun. Fortunately, Indiana is not one of those places and I'm justified in pulling a gun in any situtation in which I'm in fear for my life or of great bodily harm.

A beating is nothing to take lightly as one can very easily turn from bumps and bruises to permanent disfigurement, permanent disability, or death. Unless the person in question is significantly smaller than me, someone attempting to beat me and not allowing me to escape is a threat to my life and I will bring my weapon to bear if possible.

In the situation you describe, I think some prior weapon-retention training would certainly be appropriate and you might want to consider also carrying a less lethal option as others have suggested. I use the term "less lethal" because the term "non-lethal" is somewhat of a misnomer. While when used on a normal person in the correct manner a taser, pepper spray, or ASP baton may not be lethal, they could easily be under certain circumstances. A blow to the head with an ASP baton could easily be fatal as could the use of a taser on someone with a heart condition or pepper spray on someone with a respiratory disorder. While I'm not totally against the idea of less lethal weapons, I do think that their potential drawbacks should be considered and that they should be carried as a supplement or alternative rather than a replacement for a lethal weapon.
 
If you have decided to take-on the responsibility to carry, you are equally responsible to avoid conflict. If one's ego cannot handle that, hang up your gun before you go out.

Mike
 
What spacemanspiff said...

Between my 20's and 40's I had at least a hundred big guys in my face as I was a bouncer in a bar my aunt owned, I'm big so that's not the operative thing here. I de-escalated by saying whatever worked, hey I'm just out to have a good time tonight, let me buy you a beer, whatever.

At least a hundred irritated guys in my face with only one or two incidents, I've always been proud of having a diplomatic gift for gab even though I don't mind full contact. Ego has never entered into worrying about what people think. Another bouncer I worked with was a liability because out of a hundred in his face he only defused a few.

This was a rough biker bar with another rough biker bar across the street.

There was the night the guys from both bars came out of their respective bars like ants out of a disturbed hive. 60 separate rumbles going on at the same time. Surprisingly no guns and nobody got shot because half the patrons in each bar were packing.

I only got into it with one guy, the bouncer I was working with was an obnoxious musclebound trouble maker who had started it. We were 86ing a few bikers from a faction that was better suited to being across the street, they weren't happy and he grabs a handful of the cheek hanging out of this biker babe's azzchaps, she turns and clocks him with a roundhouse that would have been respectable by any guy and it was on between two bars. I basically tried to take Eddie out of it as a way to defuse the emminent riot that was about to take place, so we ended up going at it. We fired him after that because I'd seen him start it.

It was a movie caliber epic brawl.
 
I got to thinking more about the reality of what the OP is asking.

It has to do with the absolute nature of where your head better be when a gun is pulled out. There has to be a 100% committment and resolve to using it. Half hearted attempts to use it as a deterrent get ugly fast without the correctness of a situation that gives substantiation to resolve.

Being unsure will get a gun taken away from you in a heartbeat, so fast you won't be able to figure out how that could have happened. I have seen half a dozen or more guns taken away from people, and it was because the situation they were pulled in did not warrant shooting and the person it was pulled on knew it.

I have had guns pulled on me where I told the guy to put it away, I was deadly serious and either said put it away before you get hurt or put it away before somebody gets hurt. Different situations get different exact words but it's all the same thing, you are not in a good position if a gun is involved in an unwarranted situation, and the guy you pull it on may not let you get away with it.

Just something to think about before you find yourself in an untenable position.

I saw a mob enforcer on the San Francisco peninsula get his finger broken and wrist severely sprained when the guy he had a gun pulled on reached out and twisted the .38 he was holding, his finger was in the trigger guard and it broke that finger. It served as a lesson to me for sure. I asked the guy why he had the pistol pointed at someone he didn't intend to shoot, but his answer was so heated and full of swear words I never did catch his answer, never did ask it again either. :D It never was much of a joke to this guy and wasn't ever something that was okay to ask about. If there hadn't been witnesses he'd have been shot.


I flat don't hold with pointing a gun at someone you don't intend to shoot, it narrows it down the way it should be. If you are carrying you can't get in a fight, it's up to you to do whatever it takes to walk away.
 
follow-up

Thank you everybody for you thoughts. I will definitely be getting some more training on self defense and weapon retention. Additionally, I will consider also carrying a non-lethal means of defense.

And if anybody knows how this case would work out specifically in Florida with having to take beating or not before I draw please let me know...I've been going through the statutes for a while now with no luck.

Thanks again.
 
Step one: find a Florida-specific gun rights/gun-guy-in-general forum.

Step two: ask what's the best book on FL-specific gun laws.

Three: get it.

Four: read it :).

Seriously, there's always one "dominant" book on a given state's gun laws, updated on a regular basis (mainly when there's changes).

It might be this one based on a quick google search:

http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com

Another thing: if you draw a gun while *angry*, your risk of seriously screwing up increases. A lot. A whole lot.

You should draw a gun to defend human life - your own or others.

The Sikhs carry a knife for that purpose, and literally will not ever draw it from the sheath for any other reason...except ritual food prep within the temple :). "Saving life" could very well be non-combat-related such as cutting a crash victim's seat belt, or emergency medical use. But they won't ever show you their knife.

(There's a long story on how I know that...)

A very similar attitude should be ingrained into you, by you.

The best on-screen portrayal of the attitude involved happened in the best "Outer Limits" episode ever :).

http://www.hulu.com/watch/69858/outer-limits-rule-of-law

It happens fairly early in, although not right away...I won't drop a spoiler otherwise :).
 
With all being said already, here are my thoughts.If you are man enough to have words with someone that could escalate into a physical confrontation, then you need to be man enough to back them up. If just words are thrown at you, then there is room for retreat. If fist are thrown at you then it's time to throw down. Fighting hurts and no one wants to get shot. If you pull your gun, it's in your hand and you have control of the situation. If you fight they can get your gun, (unless you have one of high dollar holsters like the police), and you relinquish control. There is a guy on here that has a signature that says, He that get you mad has control, or something like that. He is a very smart man. If you fight, don't get angry or frustrated, stay calm and you keep control because your thoughts are clear and controllable.
 
It seems there's a lot of difference in responses so here's mine. I'm 60ish with a bad back, a bum knee & hip, arthritic hands, and a jaw that was superglued together once already. I can't stand a physical confrontation w/o possibly serious injuries although I do know several fight stopping strikes. If I can't walk away, I'll back up as far as is prudent while dialing my phone if possible. At some point the aggressor will either get within my danger zone or give it up. Unless the guy is older, smaller, or a gimp(all doubtfull), when he enters my danger zone I'll notify him I'm armed. If that doesn't stop him, he gets to see my piece and another chance to give it up. The next step is firing. I've met all three requirements of deescalation. All of these things might happen in a few seconds. I've never had to draw but a couple of times have put my hand on the grip w/o showing the pistol. Both times were in the aid of another elderly person being threatened or hassled by young people. I don't frequent bars, drink, or travel in high crime areas so anyone wanting to fight with me has already come looking.
 
I've never been one to frequent bars all that much but I remember one incident back in the late 60's I was in a very crowded bar and wanted to get a place to sit but a guy was in the way, I tapped him on the side of his arm and said excuse me, he instantly wanted to get into a fight. Thing is I was about 165-170 pounds and this guy was around 250 and I recognized him from a weight gym where I worked out in Seattle, the guy had bicepts the size of my leg. The bartender diffused this guys intention of making me into a bloody pulp. But this brings to my thought in dealing with big guys like this, steroids, I'm pretty sure this guy was using steroids because he just didn't look like he had gotten his muscularity from natural work outs. Over the years I've seen what steroids do to peoples thought processes and it needs to be considered in self defense. By the way this guy was a Seattle policeman and that in itself was scary.
 
Thinking about posts 17 and 19
Some of post 17 is fine,but the pool table incident was not so fine.
If I may assume,the pool table was in an alchohol establishment?If one has enjoyed even one beer,it can be argued judgement is impaired.The DA won't like it.
The whole "I'll show them my Python,they will be impressed.and I will gain the power to control the situation" is wrong.
The testosterone driven BS around a pool table is not a place to have a friend go to the truck and bring you your gun,what,over retaining control of a pool table?(Remember,I'm a juror at your trial)
A member of the armed and polite society might recognise some folks would prefer to shoot pool with someone besides you,like a brother or lady friend.
A gentleman might win, three games,and then say""You guys go ahead,enjoy the table a while"
Or,if the situation had already developed,"You know,you have a point,I guess you guys would like to play each other,I have been here a while,I'm going to go have a beer.
Then,go home.
If we choose to have the option of playing the deadly force card,we have to be heads up to situations that may develop,like a sailor or pilot who keeps an eye on the weather.I have worked as a doorman in a large bar,and and watching the crowd,defusing situations early is THE job skill.That same skill applies to those who carry life or death in their hand
In some cases,like going into a bar,we make the choice to assume some risks.
Cutting loose with a 357 in a crowded bar is very likely to injure or kill bystanders.
Or will you tell me you had no intention to shoot,you just wanted to scare them?
The county just east of me,sadly,recently had a funeral for a Sheriff Deputy.
He was doing his job when the other party party decided to fight.In the scuffle,bad guy pulled the officers gun and killed the officer.Then the officer's partner killed the bad guy.
No need to critique trhe officers,the point,for me,is,if I am armed,I will not physically engage a bad guy.Too many opportunties for Murphy's Law.
I'll retreat till I can't retreat any more.
 
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Some great posts here - thanks, Mr. March.

My own limited experience (past five years): carrying a pistol has made me a far more patient and forgiving soul. And I'm not at all ashamed to run the 100-meter fat-crab scrabble and get the hell out of Dodge if that will get me out of a dicey situation.

woodguru - :eek: What a night that must have been! Something about "keeping your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you" comes to mind.
 
Another point about the guns in bars posts, is that quite a few of the states, and a lot of cities and municipalities have laws barring firearms from any establishment that makes a certain percentage -I think it's usually around 60%- of their profit on the sale of alcohol. Once again, check your local laws.

Even if your state doesn't have laws against brandishing, if you flash a gun in a bar or similar establishment the other party may still be within their rights to call 911 on you.
 
HiBC

You entirely misinterpreted what I said, read it again for clarity.

They had stated I was in for a four against one whuppin when I walked out the door. I showed a gun just enough for them to see and said I was leaving, they could have the table.

All I was looking to do was get away without a four to one confrontation. I was gone within 60 seconds of letting them know I wasn't putting up with the four of them jumping me.

You took this different than it was. I only wanted out without a mismatched fight.

Bottom line it worked as good as one could hope for and I wasn't okay with the only other alternative.

I lived with way rougher characters than most will ever see in their lives as an everyday occurance, those who haven't dealt with the dregs daily will never be able to second guess the way it is and what works.

Read my post about loaning that same Python to someone who shot and killed a 6'5" bad to the bone biker and you'll get the drift. I have that same Python, it ain't for looks. Same community, Georgetown, the last of the California mountain outlaw hangouts, that place was no joke. Get people annoyed there and someone was going to get hurt.
 
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Avoiding places where fools are known to frequent is always step one.
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Good advice - it doesn't always work, but sometimes people ask for trouble.

Avoid trouble.

When you sign up for a martial art, if the instructor is worth anything he/she will tell you several things.

1. Bullets are faster than fists, and if you get in a knife fight, you will get cut.

2. Martial arts are taught for self defense only. Part of the discipline of any martial art is learning to avoid conflict whenever possible.

3. The best defense is your ability to run. Use it.

Now, being that I don't pick fights, and will walk away from any altercation if possible (because I have better things to do in life), if someone of reasonable size still tries to pound on me, that's a lethal attack - treat it like one. People overwhelmingly get this idea that someone can't kill you with their bare hands. That's just ridiculous.

If someone (of reasonable size) takes a swing at you unprovoked, what makes you think he's going to stop with just one? Last year a grad student in this town was jumped late at night, knocked out and woke up in his apartment. He doesn't remember much of the altercation, but he suffered severe cognitive disability (had a bad concussion) to the point of not being able to do grad school work any longer (at any level). He had to leave school and probably will not be able to hold a well paying job ever. He was a very bright guy.

There's no such thing as a good-natured fist fight.
 
awhile back I washed my dirt bike (still riding @ almost 52) and then ran it down the street to make sure no water was in the carb. this dude came stomping down his driveway into the middle of the street and put his hands up like he was singing "Stop in the name of love." He started barking about kids in the neighborhood running out in the street (there were none at this time) and me hitting them. he was yappng right in my face. I just smiled at him, knowing that if he really wanted to get physical then I had something for him. He was straddling my front wheel so all I had to do was pop the clutch and let it turn him into a soprano. He never knew about the CW45 on my hip and I'm glad he never gave a reason to find out.
 
I too absolutely subscribe to the "peace whenever possible" doctrine.

But.

I'm also the type who is unable to watch somebody else get pulped unjustly. I just can't do it. So my overall odds of getting into a fight go up on that basis.

I've had to reach for knives in earnest three times so far, never had to actually use (chase-offs). Two out of the three were in defense of somebody else. No legal problems at all from any of these cases, good results in each and hey, I can still look myself in a mirror, decent bonus.

Not everybody takes this view but...when you do, it does absolutely raise your odds of getting involved in a squabble or worst. In all such events, keeping your cool, using verbal judo and using the absolute minimum possible force to solve the problem is vital.

And "solve the problem" doesn't mean "catch or kill the assailants" - it means saving the life of the victim(s).
 
Any martial art will do. After a couple of years you will be far ahead of the average guy.
Any martial art works better if you are strong and limber. So exercise is a very good idea.
But a black belt and big muscles doesn't mean you can't get your buttocks kicked.

Avoid alcohol and places that serve it for recreational purposes.

Learn how to run away.
 
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