Scary Thought

gatorgun

Inactive
Hello guys,

New to forum so try not to be too rough on me. But I was interested in the following scenario:

I am an average sized guy with an average build relatively competent shooter. I've taken plenty of classes on shooting but not too many on actual physical self defense using my hands. What I am concerned about is if I get into a physical altercation with somebody and there is no way to retreat. But the altercation does not reach the level with which I would feel it appropriate to draw my weapon. Meaning the guy hasn't picked up a weapon yet still wants to get physical. What are my best options for protecting myself and my gun?

Getting into a bit of brawl with someone is one thing but when you have to worry about a weapon on your hip its a whole new picture.

Just a little curious about your guy's input on a situation like this...
 
I would take some martial-arts and hand-to-hand classes. Make sure you are getting what you are looking for (street skills) rather than a sport.
 
How did you get yourself into this situation where there is no possibility of retreat ? Were you a willing participant to the escalation of force curve ? In California you are expected to take a beat down. If the guy gets your weapon then he has escalated to a serious level and you could then probably shoot him to protect yourself. My best advice is avoid getting to this situation, even if that means eating crow, or humble pie.

If the guy comes out of nowhere to assualt you, what are his chances of doing serious injury ? I carry to protect myself from serious injury/death. Why do you carry ? Protecting ones firearm does not seem to me valid grounds for drawing a weapon. What do you think ?
 
In this country any kind of "brawl" is going to be worthy of assault and battery charges, that's serious business. Walk away from them.

Whereas battery is pretty cut and dry, just assault would be open to the interpretation of the state, and the judge, and the jury. Mainly the state though.

Alaska for example is pretty darn lenient on gun pointing.

Example:
http://www.adn.com/2009/12/10/1050531/road-rage-incident-ends-when-gun.html

Guy pointed a 10mm Glock at a road rage driver who threatened to beat him up, he was in fear for his life. Wasn't a crime, no charges could be pressed.

In lieu of trying to be like Chuck Norris, learning self defense and throwing down with mad ninja skills, I'd honestly call the cops and try to walk away.

It's only when the person puts you in a situation where you physically cannot summon aid (no time to dial etc...), that's when I'd start to consider threat/use of greater force called for.

If you try and defend yourself on some muggers level (fist fight), then you'll have a really hard time proving you weren't the antagonist it once you get to court. But I wouldn't advocate just lying there and taking a beating either.
 
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What I am concerned about is if I get into a physical altercation with somebody and there is no way to retreat. But the altercation does not reach the level with which I would feel it appropriate to draw my weapon. Meaning the guy hasn't picked up a weapon yet still wants to get physical. What are my best options for protecting myself and my gun?
1- Fists are weapons.
2- If you have the desire to retreat and cannot because your adversary/antagonist/assailant will not let you, you are in a situation where it would be a good idea to draw your gun, he has no intention of letting you walk away.
3- Always avoid a fight if at all possible. The idea that someone might just rough you up a little then let you walk away should have disappeared on the junior high playground.

If you can't avoid the fight by retreating, then you better start communicating your intentions to your assailant. It sounds like this:
Please leave me alone.
Do not come any closer.
BANG BANG BANG
beep beep beep
Hello 911, I need an officer at . . .
 
What I am concerned about is if I get into a physical altercation with somebody and there is no way to retreat.
An armed society is a polite society.—Heinlein.

You are armed, be polite. Don’t let it get to the point of physical contact. You likely do not know his capability. If he insists on getting physical it’s probably because he’s confident of his skills and his skills might be pretty good.

If you can’t walk, pull.
 
IANAL

In the words of Jim Malone:

"You just fulfilled the first rule of law enforcement: make sure when your shift is over you go home alive. Here endeth the lesson."

Here it is in a nutshell. You having a gun on you turns a hand-to-hand brawl into a possible life or death situation. I don't know if you've ever been in a fight, but they are pretty fluid with movement and positions. If that guy lays a hand on your weapon, recognizes it for what it is and pulls it, or it falls to the ground; it stops being a fight for pride/respect/slander/anger and starts being a "fight for the gun".

It is because of this reason that your PRIMARY goal as a weapon-carrier is to avoid conflict and endevour to master the art of diffusion. This is not to say that all men/people can BE reasoned with or avoided. So we must also be prepared for these instances.

I've learned liability and legal consequences in every martial art I've ever studied. My favorite instructor said one thing that will always stick out in my mind:
"If you don't want to fight, but some other guy is intent on it, then you are the one with the clear head. Back away and be loud. Put an open hand up to show you don't want to fight. If you're having legally-supportive thoughts, have them out loud. "I don't want to fight." "I'm armed." "Please don't come any closer." Be clear and loud to anyone who may hear that YOU are the victim and that you made sure that the person continuing the escalation was doing it with fair knowledge of your intent and capability."

If they don't stop, pull your weapon and ask them nicely to leave. Be polite and stern. It'll do wonders for when you have to explain it to the cops. Yelling and swearing will only paint you in the light of "another thug with a gun intimidating people".

You may have to go to court over it. Who knows, but your safer for it. To help your chances a bit, memorize this: "I'm a reasonable man, and I was afraid for my life if that guy were to start a fight with me. I tried to leave and didn't want to fight."

~LT
 
ANY, . . . ALL, . . . altercations have the propensity to become life and death situations, . . . where you ARE in danger of your life or serious injury.

There were two cases in Columbus, Ohio alone in 2010 where one punch in each case was the primary cause of death of the recipient.

Do what you want, . . . I avoid altercations like they were the plague, . . . walk away, . . . whatever.

BUT, . . . anyone who pushes the issue will see the ugly end of a well worn 1911, . . . up close and personal. What happens after that is on them.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
Gatorgun, what you are asking for and attempting to seek out is what a responsible ccw should in fact do. Folks can crow about not getting into such a situation at all, or ending a fist fight with a gun all they want. It would be just as silly to mock firearms training because if you get in a gunfight you have done something wrong, failed to retreat etc. and so forth.

You quite appropriately asked what were your best options in protecting yourself 'and your gun'. This is key. The fact remains that sometimes criminals do violent things to people who did nothing wrong. I think we are all aware of that. A simple self defense class would suit half your purpose. The other half comes with some weapons retention training. Step one is to make sure you have a retention holster. It does not need to be some level III duty rig but it should have a retention device of some sort. Avoid any open topped holster that retains with friction only. If you or any of the assembled here doubt this, then take one to a retention class and find out.

A less than lethal device is also a good idea. A small OC canister fits in the pocket very well, and there are other options for making someone rethink their course, or perhaps buying you a few necessary seconds of time to reposition or get away.

If you shop around for a class be sure to ask if they include weapons retention. When they tell you that as a super ninja you can defeat all opponents, walk away. Keep looking.
 
You could try asking the attacker about his feelings. Maybe get to the root of his anger, identify the issues, write it all down in a journal?

Seriously though.. what would you do in that situation if you were not armed? Answer that question first.
 
Tha does not answer the question. It is like telling someone to determine what they would do in a car wreck if they were a pedestrian.
 
1) avoid (leave, don't be there to begin with, amscray)

2) if 1 not available, and you decide (or not justified to) not to pull CCW, then,

it's either

3) cover up defensively and take what comes

or

4) fight to defend yourself, end the assault as best you can.


I agree that you might want to take a good self defense ma style course
from a reputable instructor.
 
If the guy gets your weapon then he has escalated to a serious level and you could then probably shoot him to protect yourself. My best advice is avoid getting to this situation, even if that means eating crow,

Yup, no question about it. If he gets your weapon, things have escalated to the level where you'd be justified in responding with deadly force.

Only problem---- WHAT WITH?

Seems like things have escalated far enough while he's attempting to take your weapon. Once he gets it, he's the one who'll be using deadly force.


Just my thoughts on the matter.:cool:
 
Oy vey.

OK. First: in MOST states the basic rule one is that you can shoot somebody "when in fear of losing your life or suffering great bodily injury from criminal attack". That's the most common basic guidelines. Some states add a "duty to retreat" thing in there, many (most?) states allow you to shoot (or more technically, "use deadly force" so a knife/hammer/etc. is legally no different) in defense of others.

If you haven't read up on what the rules are for your state, you're Doing It Wrong[tm].

Second, in the VAST majority of states, there's very little legal distinction between pulling a gun and shooting. In other words, if you can legally do one, you can do the other.

There's odd variants between states. For example, Arizona just passed a new rule that says when a person threatened displays a holstered handgun, puts their hand on it but doesn't draw yet, a lot of leeway goes to the defender. They'd still best have a reason but the standards are lower as long as they don't clear leather (actually draw). This is a rare type of rule!

In ALL states, the moment the threat evaporates, you lose the ability to shoot. This could be because you did indeed shoot them sufficiently, or it could be because you didn't manage to get a shot off before they screamed like a little girl, wet their pants and ran off at full tilt boogie. This happens a LOT. It's called a "chase off" or the like and if you can articulate that this is indeed what happened, you SHOULD be legally in the clear. It is after all the most common thing that happens when a gun gets pulled in self defense - by at least 90%, for ordinary citizens OR cops. Been there, done that, watched various lunatics retreat at speed and I've never been arrested let along charged with a violent crime - ever.

Now. This leads to our next problem. "If all you have is a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail". If a gun is your first, last and only self defense method then guess what? We're back into Doing It Wrong[tm] territory - what you're doing is WAY legally risky unless you're elderly, infirm or a small female.

Let's go back to the most common legal standard again: "fear of losing your life or suffering great bodily injury". If that fear comes JUST from the fact that you're packing and they could get the gun, then you run smack into another problem: your "fear" must be based on what a REASONABLE PERSON might fear in the same circumstances.

In other words, if your "fear" of somebody comes from the fact that they're actually an alien slime-being from Arcturus IV in disguise, it ain't reasonable and you're headed for either jail or a loony bin. As it should be.

Well guess what? Your 12 jurors may not be gun-toters even in a rabidly pro-gun state like Arizona. One or two might be but their "words of wisdom" (assuming they have any) could easily get drowned out and they cave in on "guilty".

If you are carrying a gun, you need to have a plan "b" non-lethal form of self defense in case the threat doesn't rise to an obvious level of "they're gonna kill me or massively screw me up".

Not confident in your unarmed combat abilities? OK. They make this stuff called "Pepper Spray", also known as "Kung Fu In A Can". Get a big one (4oz or so) with a fine-stream nozzle and a "spiciness rating" of at least 1.5 million SCU (Scofield Heat Units). It should say what it is on the can - if not, it's junk.

Give 'em a faceful of that first. Doesn't always work but hey, at least you tried. If he goes completely ape**** bonkers and you still need to shoot him, well, you still come out looking better. And the stuff DOES work a lot of the time.

In ALL cases where you choose not to use a gun, keep it under wraps if possible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In my case, my unarmed abilities are at least a bit better than average (being 6'4" and 280+lbs helps) and I carry a good-size AA-length flashlight as a "kubaton" type weapon that I've had some training in. Given one large assailant or maybe two small ones (depending on how crazy they seem) I'll try that first. The *instant* I think a weapon is involved on their part, or I see signs an opponent is drugged up, a very large 357Mag is going to join the party loading with six rounds that are each about 1/3rd more potent than anything the cops carry. And they'd best do the "scream and run" thing REALLY really fast.

Appendix: things that can cause you to be "extra afraid" of an attack.


1) Multiple assailants.

2) Much bigger assailant.

3) Assailant's motive - a robber for example is likely to be much more out of control than, say, somebody else at a party who doesn't like you hogging all the nacho dip or whatever.

4) Assailant's motive - HATE CRIMES. Even in states that don't have a "hate crime" law per se, most people (even judges/cops/prosecutors) understand that when an assault happens right after the assailant screams words like "nigger" or "faggot" or whatever, the likely violence level goes way, way up.

5) One or more assailants has a deadly weapon. Probably the most clear-cut situation and among the most common.

6) Assailant has just delivered a major beat-down adding up to "great bodily injury" to somebody else and is now turning in your direction!

7) Indications that the assailant is either crazy or on drugs.

8) Assailant has already delivered great bodily injury on you!

9) Due to infirmity, age or handicap, you have "extra reason" to fear getting punched. Examples may range from "recent head surgery, skull isn't yet fitted together very well", "known bone density problems such as Osteoperosis", "previous joint damage" or the like. "Bonus points" if it's obvious you've got issues (braces/crutches/wheelchair) and the assailant is hence an obvious predator looking for "prey".

10) When the assailant(s) are animals, the standards are much, MUCH lower! You still can't shoot somebody's dog for no reason, but it doesn't take a whole lot of aggression to give you cause to shoot. (You still have to worry about danger to bystanders - what's your backstop? That's a whole 'nother thing!) Wild animals, the standards are even lower and if you suspect something is rabid, you can generally go after it actively even if it's not attacking...but again, backstop and "shooting in urban environments" dangers need to be factored in.

There may be others but that covers the majority.

Case History 1: Gordon Hale

Mr. Hale was the first Texas CCW holder to ever shoot anybody. He killed a much larger, younger and crazier assailant. Hale and this nut accidentally bumped cars in a very minor way. Hale pulled over expecting a polite exchange of insurance or whatever, and rolled down his window. Younger nutcase started pounding him in the face through his window, with Hale still seated. Broke Hale's face, literally - detached his retina and broke his cheekbone, and then tried to drag Hale out through his own window. Hale grabbed his Glock, fired one shot to the assailant's chest, killed him dead. No criminal charges. (Note: ALL Texas shootings go to a grand jury, which no-billed Hale.) This was a "type 8" in my appendix above - the fact that Hale took serious damage and reasonably feared more helped a lot in the legal aftermath (criminal and civil court - assailant's family didn't get squat).

Case History 2: Harold Fish

Fish, like Hale, was an older gent in his 50s, walking in a wilderness area. Fish was charged by two dogs. He fired a warning shot or two into some dirt - remember, wilderness area meant far less threat to bystanders, and dogs meant his "right to shoot" standards are a lot lower so he's in good shape legally so far.

The dogs ran away.

The dog's owner however turned out to be a complete nutcase with a history of attacking people who criticize or threaten his often-out-of-control dogs. Dog's owner charges Fish, windmilling his arms and screaming in a crazed fashion per Fish. Dude is larger than Fish. Fish shoots him dead, one round. Tries to do some first aid, goes and gets help, no good, guy dies.

Fish was convicted - at first. The trial court erred in blocking evidence that the assailant tended to behave in exactly the fashion Fish described - right down to the crazy windmill arms attack, the yelling, etc. Other witnesses who had seen the same stuff before in other attacks were barred from testimony. Per the Arizona Supreme Court, this was a major violation of Fish's civil rights and he's free pending a decision on a new trial last I heard. It's more or less impossible that he'll be convicted. More details at:

http://www.haroldfishdefense.org/

Lessons: this was a combination of "crazy assailant" and "larger assailant". Fish was lucky in one sense that this guy's crazy behavior was on record but on another level, nutcases who do stuff like this usually have a track record and as the AZ Supremes noted, that track record is admissible in court IF it's to prove that the story Fish told the cops post-shooting was in fact accurate. In other words, you can't use the shot-up guy's past as justification to shoot him now! You CAN use the shot-up guy's past as evidence that he did the same damn thing in this case. There's a fine distinction between between these two uses for that data and the Fish case illustrates the difference.

Finally, Fish might have been better off using pepper spray on his *human* attacker, but he had an extra problem: the two dogs are what started the problem and trying to gas two fast-moving dogs at once would have been a stone-cold *****. Therefore Fish very properly pulled a gun, did a warning shot (legally justified, esp. since this was wilderness) and then only once the gun was out was he confronted with the nutcase. Putting the gun away and switching to pepper would have been risky on two counts: it would have taken extra time, and would have told the nut that Fish had a gun on him available to be taken away. (An argument can be made that the warning shots weren't very smart. I disagree under the circumstances, esp. since it actually worked great on the dogs!)

I AM NOT A LAWYER. THESE ARE MY PERSONAL OPINIONS. IF YOU'RE CARRYING A GUN AND HAVEN'T READ A GOOD SUMMARY OF YOUR STATE'S DEADLY FORCE LAWS, YOU'RE FRACKIN' CRAZY.
 
That's actually when a gun becomes a liability, in a physical altercation pulling a gun can easily be construed as brandishing. I've had physical confrontations where I've had to hand off a gun to a friend so I could deliver a good old fashioned azzwhupin. Fact of the matter is a guy that hands off a gun so he can get physical is pretty worrisome in and of itself. :D I've had the act of handing off a gun do the job of being an effective deterrent.

There are times when you are better off not having a gun on you. Now there are other times such as multiple guys intending to jump you that I interpret as a threat to my life and a gun in hand changes some minds faster than you can shake a stick at.

Here's a good example. I had been holding a pool table in a very rough bar at five bucks a game for over two hours. One of the guys informs me that if I win another game it's going to be on out in the parking lot with he and three of his friends that were as irritated as he was. I handed my keys to a guy who was not associated with the hillbillies and told him there was a Python under the front seat and I was going to need it if he'd be so good as to get it for me. He comes back in and is trying to slip it to me as low key as possible and I lifted my sweat shirt high and let the guys see me park that nasty looking four inch Python in the front of my pants. (Pythons just look wickedly bad to the bone, ya gotta love em).

I announced that I was all through playing so they could have their table back and walked out unaccosted. I was in for a brawl if I hadn't had the deterrent.
 
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Verbal skills are also very useful. No I don't mean the "Stop! Desist from pestering me at once! Or Else!"
I mean the "Hey, sorry if I offended you, yes I am a horrible excuse for human existance. I am in the wrong here, I won't do that ever again."

Responsibly carrying a firearm means you do everything you can to DE-escalate any volatile situation you find yourself in the middle of, wherever possible. That includes, but is not limited to, swallowing your pride, letting your ego get bruised, accepting disparaging comments made about you, or your parents or anyone connected to you, questioning of your sexuality, belittling of your private parts, allowing the other party feel like a bigger man or woman. You do not have to have the last word, nor are you required to defend 'honor'. It is alright to be disrespected, if it means you can live to see another day.
A generation or three ago, one could expect to get introduced to someones fists over a matter of disrespect. That unfortunately, is not a valid response anymore.
 
Gator, read the last two posts by Jim March and Woodguru well and you will learn from each. I trust you can discern the merits respectively.
 
you need to escalate the "weapon or threat" instead of meeting it. if someone starts swinging...back up, warn them, pull your gun. if someone has a knife...back up, warn them, pull your gun. if someone has a taser...pull your gun. if someone has mace/pepper spray...pull your gun. if someone has a ___...back up, warn them, pull your gun. you can never go too far unless you shoot a defenseless person.
 
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