Scary Experience, Advice Needed

[Lost Sheep]

My thoughts on a flare gun

do you think a wolf would run from a flare out of a flare gun? Of course, you'd be running the risk of setting stuff on fire...

I kind of doubt it. Most are single shots and designed to send a flare up (with a parachute to extend its hang time). Firing at ground level is going to put a light (or a fire) in one spot. The other 330 or so degrees of your perimeter will still be in darkness, and you will be backlit.

A hand-held flare (like those used to mark automobile accidents) would give them something to focus on, close enough to fire (within their experience or genetic memory) to give pause, and far enough outside their experience to introduce confusion. Flare in one hand and handgun in the other. You are still surrounded, but armed with two weapons and no longer in the dark.

On the bad side, it is slow to deploy (much slower than a flashlight) and will ruin your night vision. You likely will not be able to see into shadowy woods at all, either while the flare is burning or, even worse, after it goes out you will be virtually blind if the woods are dark or if it is after sunset.

For light, I would have a 6 watt LED tactical flashlight (the most powerful commonly available for reasonable prices). Drawback, it only points in one direction. If surrounded by a hunting pack, the lit wolf will back off and attack will come from the rear.

In some jurisdictions, carrying a firearm during a bow hunt is illegal. There might be exceptions for muzzle-loaders ("primitive arms season"), so a Ruger Old Army might be legal. Check your game regs.

Lost Sheep

 

[BKScripto]

I like the recommendation of the Glock in .357 SIG, or any other hi-cap auto in that caliber. If your looking for something that is cost effecient, you can't beat the Glock for around the $550 price range.

Not sure I would recommend a revolver of any sort. Notice you said 'several' wolves. I would much rather have a semi-auto with 15+ rounds at my disposal than a wheelgun, JMHO though. Better safe than sorry, for sure.

When I used to bow hunt in Maryland I packed a hi-cap 9mm auto with a couple extra mags in a chest holster/rig. I felt fine with a 9mm because the worst thing I could run into was coyotes in that area.


Definitely a smart move to arm yourself with a handgun while bow hunting.
Be sure to let us know what you decide!

 

[Blondie.357]

If the .357 Magnum or it's ballistic equivalent the .357 Sig, does not float your boat, then I might suggest a Glock 20 in 10MM with full house loads.

Thats incorrect, the magnum is quite a bit stronger if you use truly hot rounds. It leaves the sig in the dust actually. And thats just with 125 grain, not to mention you can load up a .357 with up to 200 grains which is completely out of the sigs league.

 

[Blondie.357]

I had a scary experience this year during hunting season. Walking in the dark during elk bow season just before daylight, I ended up with several wolves within 15 yards from me. All I had was my bow and arrows and that did not feel like enough. I'd like to buy a handgun to carry during archery season and during my other days in the woods on hiking trips, firewood cutting, etc. Something reasonably light, but accurate and dependable. I own a Virginian Dragoon in .44 mag, but it's large and only single action (I'd prefer double) and also a Colt 1911 Government Model MKIV / Series 70 .45ACP, but it's still like new in the original box and a little too valuable to be banging around in the woods.
What would you suggest...something fairly small to keep the weight down as much as I can and affordable. I like the S&W 620 and 686's, maybe the 629's. I've also read good things about Ruger's GP100. Any suggestions on gun and caliber? Thanks...

Get a 4 inch 686P and buy

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_27&products_id=336
or
http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=100

I linked the 180 grain but that might not even be ideal. Wolves aren't that big. Maybe the 158 or even the 125 grain would be better, I'm not sure about that.

But either way, You get a powerful handgun that isn't to much on your hip.

 

[Big Bill]

I'm going out on a limb here - I think some will disagree. I live in Idaho and have hunted in the Selway and other areas since I was 12 YO (48 years ago). I have started carrying high capacity 9mm autos since the state introduced wolves into the backwoods. Methinks a Glock 17 or S&W M&P etc. would be the right round and firearm for what you need. When dealing with a pack of wolves, I'll take superior high capacity firepower every time.

Instead of 6 shots from a revolver, I'll take 20 rounds from a hi cap 9mm instead. And, reloads are so much faster. I believe the choice is a life and death decision. I choose life!

Dogs are tough – coyotes are tougher yet! Wolfs, well wolfs are crazy tough. Penetration would be my primary concern.

I've killed dogs and coyotes at 50+ yards with a .22 LR. Penetration is important but so is shot placement and mag capacity. In my experience a 9mm penetrates just fine. I don't think many people here have shot a wolf. So, is a wolf tougher than a 250 lb crack addict? I don't think so.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu6.htm

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

 

[ice monkey]

Hey Big Bill,

Is a wolf tougher than a 250lb crack head? Well I will just say this – when you shoot a human they know they are being shot at, and the whole mental thing comes into play. When a wild dog comes at you seeing “red,” well … there is no stopping it other than a shot to the head or heart. I mean if that dog isn’t frightened by the bang of your gun, and still comes at you … Then yes, I would say a wolf would be harder to stop than a man. Moreover, if it’s a pack!?! Dogs are crazy when they are seeing red – and your shot is going to have to hit the mark! It’ll happen fast and you’re going to have a lot of errant shots on an animal(s) that doesn’t understand or care that its hurt – and that (+ the fact that you can usually avoid or run away from a man) I think makes them a lot harder to put down than a man.

As for killing coyotes at 50 yrds + with a .22 - sure. You can kill just about anything if you are not detected at 50 yrds. Without a doubt Big Bill – shot placement is key. BUT shooting a mad wolf or a pack of wolfs charging you, is not something I would call easy.

But really - it’s all irrelevant. Wolfs just don’t attack people.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Wolves and people?

But really - it’s all irrelevant. Wolfs just don’t attack people.

I beg your pardon?

While it is rare for wolves to hunt people for food, it happens. And while more wolves have been killed by people, wolf behavior does allow for opportunistic attacks on people. Conclusion: the threat is real. Be it a case of mistaken identity (wolves thinking a person is a prey animal), aggression on an intruder to their territory, or just a pack trying to steal a meal from a successful hunter, it is possible.

Unlikely, sure. But being a people does not confer a "get out of the woods free" card. At least not one that wolves can read. Unless Kansas wolves are better educated than other locales.

I don't mean to start a debate. This is just an expression of one opinion. If a debate, I would drag up attack stories. I would have to find them, though. I cannot recall people attacks, but we do have some attacks on dogs in the presence of people around here.

Lost Sheep

Well, it seems wolf attacks on people are rarer than I thought. Even this one:

Fatal wolf attack
The death of Kenton Carnegie
CBC News Online | March 07, 2006

On Nov. 8, 2005, 22-year-old Ontario student Kenton Carnegie went for a walk near the northern Saskatchewan mining camp where he was doing a co-op placement. Hours later, his body was found at the edge of a frozen lake, surrounded by wolf tracks.
Kenton Carnegie
Kenton Carnegie had flown into Points North Landing working for a survey company as part of his university's co-op program.

Although the province's chief coroner has yet to release a report on what caused his death, a few days after the attack the RCMP said it's likely wolves killed the third-year geological engineering student from the University of Waterloo.

A CBC investigation, based on interviews and previously unreleased government documents, supports the suggestion that this may be the first documented case of a healthy wolf killing a human in the wild in North America in at least a century.

even this one is recognized as an extreme rarity.

Non-fatal attacks on children are more common than on adults. But those happen, too,

I was remembering a story I hear recently on APRN (Alaska Public Radio Network). Listening to the survivor of the attack (Roderick Phillip) telling the story was chilling. He was very matter of fact. But I had forgotten that the wolf was alone and suffering from rabies. Listen at:

http://aprn.org/2009/09/17/rabid-wolf-attacks-hunter/

the newspaper story (Fairbanks News-Miner) had a short exerpt of of Roderick's account

http://beta.newsminer.com/news/2009/sep/19/alaska-hunter-attacked-rabid-wolf-survives/
Alaska hunter attacked by rabid wolf, survives

The Associated Press

Originally published Saturday, September 19, 2009 at 3:50 p.m.
Updated Saturday, September 19, 2009 at 7:04 p.m.

ANCHORAGE, Alaska - An Alaskan hunter has survived a rare attack by a rabid wolf.

Roderick Phillip, 35, was at a bonfire near Kalskag with three hunting partners earlier this month when he went down to the nearby Kuskokwim River to look for moose. It was around 2 a.m.

Alone, without his gun, Phillip noticed a white figure lurking near the campsite. He saw it was a wolf and yelled "wolf!" to alert his hunting partners. His yell caught the animal's attention and it lunged at Phillip full-speed, biting him on the leg.

The wolf and Phillip wrestled for a few moments before Phillip's brother shot the animal with a rifle, killing it. They later learned the wolf was rabid.

"When it bit me, it felt like somebody grabbed me on the skin. It didn't feel like a bite," Phillip told the Anchorage Daily News on Friday. "As soon as it bit me, I took my right arm and put it on the wolf's neck and turned down on the ground. I was on top of him and choking him at the same time I had my shoulder pushing down toward him. I didn't want to let it go."

Phillip said he received a shipment of rabies vaccine. He will need five shots over 28 days to ward off the disease. His leg wounds were not serious.

Wolf attacks on humans are rare, and the known cases almost always involve wolves that are rabid or otherwise sick, said Kimberlee Beckmen of the Alaska Department of Fish and Game.

Phillip's attack was the second time in recent years a rabid wolf has attacked a person or animals in Southwest Alaska. In 2007, a pack of rabid wolves killed a half-dozen dogs in a village.

There have been 19 confirmed cases of rabies in wolves in Alaska since 1971, Beckmen said.

I still carry in certain areas of the woods, though. Pepper spray, at a minimum. It works on wolves as well as bears.

So, I guess I should eat some words. Attacks are rarer than I thought, at least by healthy animals.

But there are exceptions: There are some "suburban" wolves near where I live. Two or three packs. One pack hangs out near a hiking/jogging trail that runs near the edge of town and the forest that adjoins it.

Dec. 21 2007: Wolves blamed in two Eagle River attacks

Today's news for the Last Frontier

By TERRY CARR | tcarr@adn.com

Published: January 2nd, 2008 07:30 AM
Last Modified: January 2nd, 2008 07:31 AM

Wolves blamed in two Eagle River attacks. A KTVA Channel 11 story reports on a group of at least seven wolves that waylaid three women running with their dogs on Artillery Road in Eagle River. The pack, despite being pepper-sprayed by one of the women, circled the group for a time before attacking and injuring one of the dogs, according to the story.

The women were not hurt in the episode, but a bulldog, Buddy, underwent surgery to fix his wounds. “They were not afraid of us, and I’m afraid that if I was out here by myself, they would attack me,” Buddy’s owner, Camas Barkemeyer, says in the story.

The report says the episode came about an hour after a dog on a chain was attacked and killed in an Eagle River backyard. State Department of Fish and Game officials believe both attacks may have involved the same wolves, according to the story.

Meanwhile, a Fairbanks Daily News-Miner story today says that Fish and Game officials in that community have set up a hot line and an Internet site to handle reports of wolf sightings. A pack of wolves is believed to be responsible for at least three dog deaths in the region in recent months.

Click here for more stories that have run in the ADN this winter about wolves attacking dogs in the Anchorage and Fairbanks areas.

There have also been reports of a single wolf "baiting" dogs to chase it furthur down the trail, where the rest of the pack was to be found.

Attacks, particularly fatal attacks on adult humans are rare indeed. That remote risk still suggests I carry a sidearm powerful enough to immediately kill or immediately disable a wolf. That means breaking shoulder bones or penetrating to the central nervous system. .357, 10mm, 45 Colt (heavy loads) probably sufficient. .44 Special, I am not sure about. The heaviest bullets available for the 40 S&W and 9mm might not have enough momentum (which is different than energy) .41 Magnum and .44 Magnum and larger would certainly be plenty with good shot placement assumed for all the aforementioned calibers.

So, the original poster probably was not in any REAL danger. But I would be a lot more conforted by a multi-shot firearm than a bow and arrows.

So, Ice Monkey, you are more right than I had thought.

Lost Sheep

 

[Eagleks]

Wolves haven't knowingly killed or attacked humans in ..... ages. They will run from you and avoid you. But then, maybe some of those "missing " people.... LOL.

 

[Elvishead]

do you think a wolf would run from a flare out of a flare gun? Of course, you'd be running the risk of setting stuff on fire...

Not sure if your serious, but you can get 12ga pepper shot shell's for flare guns. With claims it will even stopp grizzies.

I'm going out on a limb here - I think some will disagree. I live in Idaho and have hunted in the Selway and other areas since I was 12 YO (48 years ago). I have started carrying high capacity 9mm autos since the state introduced wolves into the backwoods. Methinks a Glock 17 or S&W M&P etc. would be the right round and firearm for what you need. When dealing with a pack of wolves, I'll take superior high capacity firepower every time.

I can't disagree, but a .357 would be more well rounded for bear also.

 

[GojuBrian]

I came across some wolves while in Montana. They just scattered,but it sure did stop me in my tracks. The grizzly grazing 100 or so yards off made me turn around. Montana can be a dangerous place to rome around.

Almost forgot. I think any reliable centerfire pistol larger than .380 would be just fine.

 

[Skans]

EAA Witness - 14 rounds of 10mm, plus one in the chamber makes 15. Seems like a good compromise to me. Not exactly 20 rounds, but you can always cary a spare mag.

 

[jtc2162]

why not the 1911? Any gun is almost new once. It has great knock down power, penetration,ease of carry. What more can you ask?

moar ammo!

 

[jrothWA]

Minimum to carry should be a 4" .357Mag,...

then go up from there. Better ammo selection availability than .357SIG, out in the back country stores.

Is your Series 70 more valuable than your life? USE IT!

 

[ice monkey]

Awesome post Lost Sheep!

I keep forgetting that sometimes I might know a bit more about wolves than the next guy, due to my friendship to a person who is a wolf fanatic. Thanks for doing “the work.”

I am surprised that your research didn’t uncover the confirmed case of a wolf attack/death in Canada this year of a young country singer ( I think it was this year – getting old). Plus, I tend to forget about the whole rabies thing too. Like I said; awesome post, thanks.

All said and done, I guess if I were to read the OP more clearly – the OP said he was looking for a pistol that might give him/her comfort when staring down a pack of wolves … and in that case yeah lol … a high capacity anything, would give me comfort .

 

[Big Bill]

Hey Big Bill,

Is a wolf tougher than a 250lb crack head? Well I will just say this – when you shoot a human they know they are being shot at, and the whole mental thing comes into play.

Well, I've never had to shoot a crack head, so you may be right. However, I still think one is better off with a high cap pistol (9mm, etc.) than with a six round wheelgun when facing a pack of wolves. Just shooting some warning shots at the wolves at a distance would probably be enough.

 

[batmann]

Wolves are scary and bring out our worst fears. That said, the first thing you need to do is check with your DNR and find out IF you can carry a fire arm while bow hunting and IF you can carry a semi-auto.
If the law permits, I say go with a good revolver such as a GP 100 or 686 in .357M. It should handle any wolf.

 

[tipoc]

Seems to me the best weapon you can have with you is some knowledge of wolf behavior. I'd study that some with an eye to standard prevention through avoidance particulars and anatomy with an eye to shot placement.

In a semi: While the 9mm might do I believe a heavier bullet has done quite well in the past. I would avoid the lighter bullet of the TT-33 (7.62x25). A 124 gr. bullet would be my starting point though. Here the 9mm, 357 Sig or the .38 Super with a 148 gr. or 158 gr. bullet at 1200 fps would work. I believe the heavier bullet of 10mm, 40 S&W or the 45 acp would work better.

In a wheel gun: The .357 in a 158 gr. pill would be a starting point. About 1100-1200 fps will work with a semi wad cutter load. The 44 Spl, 41 mag, lighter loads of the 44 Mag, 45 Colt would all work. SWC load.

A lung shot will kill a wolf but not necessarily right away. Breaking bone will stop or slow it down, usually. They are capable of taking multiple hits in vital areas and continuing on.

In either case shot placement will trump magazine capacity. You should practice a good bit with the gun and load you plan on carrying prior to trusting yourself with it.

The shooter is more important here than the gun or caliber.

tipoc

 

[Nnobby45]

comes into play. When a wild dog comes at you seeing “red,” well … there is no stopping it other than a shot to the head or heart.

I once shot the heart out of a coyote I'd called in at about 15 ft. with a 20 gauge. This coyote hadn't read your theory about being stopped with his heart shot out. He turned and went a fair distance before collapsing.

And this coyote wasn't "seeing red", he was expecting a meal.

 

[ice monkey]

I have to make a correction here – the attack of the country singer killed in Canada was done so by a coyote … wow!

You know, all this makes me think about predators (other than human). I know when an animal gets the “taste human blood,” rangers go out of their way to kill the animal before it gets “ideas.” Those animals are rare – but dang they are good at what they do! When I was in DC, I was in a museum (can’t remember which one), that had two stuffed lions that (again – memory and facts) I think killed something like 80 people in Africa! Now that’s success lol!

I wonder if there is … well, any good stories of a successful predator in North America?

 

[dgludwig]

In either case shot placement will trump magazine capacity.

Whereas no sensible person would quibble with the axiom that there is no substitute for shot placement, if you are in a situation where multiple assailants (in the case at hand, however unlikely, a pack of hungry or angry wolves) are attacking you from different directions at a fast clip, placing each of your five or six shots on hand accurately is a feat best accomplished in a movie script.

I'd opt for a relatively light-weight, relatively powerful (minimum caliber being 9mm), reliable semi-auto having a generous magazine capacity. A Smith & Wesson Model 6906 comes to mind, stoked with 124 grain bullets. In addition to a sidearm (where legal, of course), a large canister of "bear level potency" pepper spray might prove useful.