Say I catch a perpetrator.....

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You don't have authority to use deadly force to protect someone from taking your neighbors car in their driveway, that goes for all 50 states.
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I mostly agree with this post, but it's not quite this simple.

In Colorado, you do not have the right to use deadly force to protect property, but you do have the right to use physical force. And you always have the right to confront a criminal.

i.e. ...

Guy breaking into my neighbors car. If I think I can take him, I'm perfectly within my rights to tackle his butt to the ground and hold him in a headlock until the police arrive. Tackling somebody and holding them in a headlock is physical force, not deadly force. Police give me a slap on the back and take the guy in.

If the guy is too big to tackle, I have every right to come up near him and yell at him that I'm calling the cops. In this latter situation ... I have been told by a lawyer that if I am carrying a weapon, it would be considered prudent and NOT brandishing to have that weapon unholstered. The lawyer even said I could point it at the BG, even though I have no right to fire, though I doubt I'd do that myself.

If the BG responds to me with agressive force that I believe to be life endangering I have as much right to fire as if he had attacked me out of the blue.

I doubt I would confront someone breaking into a car unless I seriously thought I could hold them in place physically, but I would consider doing something like blocking the car in with mine, etc. And the fact that I have a weapon concealed on my person just gives me an option the BG doesn't know about. :D
 
I've been in LE for 14 years and I say NEVER< NEVER< NEVER cock a revolver. It's not necessary. It will only cause you problems. First of all your adreneline is pumping and it only take a light tap to set that thing off. I'm sure you have enough power in your finger to pull the trigger if need be, so there is no reason for cocking it. Second, NEVER approach the BG. Protecting property is not worth dying for. Be a good witness instead. The only time you should pull a gun is to protect your life or the life of someone else, thats it, property is not worth getting into a gun battle over.

Also, NEVER approach anyone. Even if you think you are bigger and badder or think you can take them. I've seen several small guys, and I'm 6'6 260, kick some ass because they are all drugged up or they don't want to go to jail. Also, you can't see what someone may have hidden on his person, and when he wipps oit that knife your in big trouble even if he is much smaller. Call us a we will come in force. Just remember personal property, ie car, T.V, etc. is not worth it, don't approach anyone, call 911. But if your life is in danger or someone elses do what you have to to stay alive and deal with whatever comes later.

Also remember that even if the BG doesnt have a gun and you do, there is a chance he can take yours. Its happened before to the best of them.
 
Doug, more direct question, why did you draw and not shoot immediatly? Guns are not for intimidation. If someone breaks into your home/attacks you with gun or knife, and you get a chance to draw, don't talk to the scum, just shoot him dead.

My weapon stays in the holster until needed. When needed, the only way it isn't firing is if they turn tail and run in the time it takes me to reach/draw/aim.

Then again, if I see someone jacking my neighbors car, I won't be running off playing cop either. Guns are not toys. You are not a cop.
 
How do I approach him to search him?
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You don't. Get him spread-eagle on the ground and leave him there, covered, until the cops show up.

Safely searching someone is something that takes a bit of training and regular practice, and is best done when you have a buddy to cover the BG while you search. Let the cops do it.

As for more than one BG, put them all in a row spread eagle, use two rows if there's more than four. If there's more than 12 (three rows) you're in the wrong part of town, SGT York.

It is possible to imagine a scenario where a verbal warning could be appropriate, after which the BG might surrender... for example a hostage situation where you might be talking while trying to get the shot, but the BG decides to drop his weapon before you get it lined up.
 
jeez

When I read a question like this, I first ask the questioner to give his own, preliminary answer. Similarly, this applies to all of us. If a person doesn't make the effort, then he is not helping himelf in his problem solving capabilities.

How many responders have said not to approach? Obviously, there is a reason not to approach.

Another option is to instruct the BG to drop his pants to his ankles. I don't mean for sex. Figure it out why.

In the real world things happen very quickly and snap decisions are made. Academic questions like:

1. 9mm vs. .45acp;
2. Glock vs. .45 colt;
3. when can I shoot someone in my house;
4. when do I get invovled and when do I walk away;
5. how many pounds of bugout gear can I carry in New York City
don't matter very much and are time wasters.

You all read about don't take a pistol to a rifle fight. I will go beyond it. Get your s--t together. Make the effort to keep aware of your surroundings. Have an attitude and program for improving your physical health, shooting fundmentals and human communication skills.

Now for the big answer.

When you are at a distance and pointing a firearm at someone under your control, you have maxed your safety. If you move in, you give up your advantage. If you can't understand that fundamental, you are in trouble in your life.

It is up to you to use your noodle and figure out how you confirm that a person is really unarmed. Hint: If a person is within grappling distance, he is not unarmed. And, you had better start thinking about that on a daily basis.

Dumb example. Black and whites. Traffic stop. 5 suspected drug dealers. I stay in the black and white, armed. Two cops with shotguns have the drop on the suspected BGs (Columbians who run a stop sign near the airport are clearly international drug dealers to people who watch too much tv). One idiot runs up to a BG and has the shotgun pointed at the guy's neck from about 4 feet away! Really dumb move. What happened to the advantage of having a gun displayed at the purported BG and distance? And this guy was supposedly trained too!
 
Guy breaking into my neighbors car. If I think I can take him, I'm perfectly within my rights to tackle his butt to the ground and hold him in a headlock until the police arrive. Tackling somebody and holding them in a headlock is physical force, not deadly force. Police give me a slap on the back and take the guy in.

If the guy is too big to tackle, I have every right to come up near him and yell at him that I'm calling the cops. In this latter situation ... I have been told by a lawyer that if I am carrying a weapon, it would be considered prudent and NOT brandishing to have that weapon unholstered. The lawyer even said I could point it at the BG, even though I have no right to fire, though I doubt I'd do that myself.

If the BG responds to me with agressive force that I believe to be life endangering I have as much right to fire as if he had attacked me out of the blue.
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Very doubtful, considering YOU STARTED the altercation. Now a guy that was trying to steal a car is dead. He wasn't armed, he wasn't holding anybody up, you shot him period. That's what the prosection is going to say infront of the jury. The law isn't so cut and dry, your life is going to be in the hands of 12 people. You could have retreated, easily. You didn't even have to retreat because you weren't being threatened in the first place. You choose to involve yourself in a situation which you engaged. Jesus, where did you guys get your ccw permits at?
 
Also, as far as cocking the revolver, I would only do that if I HAD to approach the criminal, and I would secure my thumb over the hammar and my index finger away from the trigger.
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You're not thinking this out at all. First off, you DON'T have to approach the BG.

Cocked revolver, with your thumb over the hammer? ? ? ! ? :eek:

Is this a SAA, and you're not telling us?

Are you making this up as you go along? It certainly sounds like it.

A well-trained person would most likely not cock the gun AT ALL. Under certain circumstances, a well-trained person MIGHT cock the gun and fire it with the intention of dropping the BG to the ground, This would quite possibly involve killing him.

I recommend Massad Ayoob's LFI-1 course. At the very least, purchase and read his In the Gravest Extreme.
 
One of my first classes was home defense and we went over this.

Not sopposed to search them. keep them at gun point, finger off trigger.
The BG on the floor face down...not to a side, but DOWN, lips on the floor, arms and legs spread wide open.

And you call 911 for BU, or yell as loud as you can for help.

As a side note, if you catch them IN your house, they (BG) shouldnt be alive anymore.
 
Guy breaking into my neighbors car. If I think I can take him, I'm perfectly within my rights to tackle his butt to the ground and hold him in a headlock until the police arrive.
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I was told by a trainer that using the headlock could be seen as attempted murder if you dont kill the person.
 
Suppose I catch a perpetrator breaking into my house, car, robbing my neighbor or friend, holding me or them up with a gun or knife etc. and I pull my gun and tell him to put his hands over his head, kneel down, cross legs or spread his hands on the car, or whatever to get him under control. How do I approach him to search him?
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If they are holding a gun or if they have a knife and are within 20 feet, I'd say shoot them. What if they turn around and try to shoot you? What if they grab the person you are trying to protect and use them as a human shield? What if they then tell you to drop the gun or else they will slit your friend's or neighbor's throat?

If there is no other person involved and I get the drop on the intruder, that is another story. If I see a gun and the person even tries to turn around and use it, I will shoot. If they surrender and toss the weapon away, I can't legally or morally shoot someone who is no longer a threat. In that case, I would have them lay face down with their fingers laced behind their head. I would then call the pollice. If they ran, then there isn't much you can do.
 
split second decisions

I once stopped a fleeing perp running down my block at gunpoint. I looked down the block and could see a cop chasing him through an alley. I got my G19 and grabbed the cordless phone, thinking I could direct backup to assist the officer. Apparently the perp had jumped a couple of fences and lost the officer. Next thing I know, I see a 7ft. tall, 350 pd. shadow with a gold tooth gleaming, running straight at me. The cop was a good 50 yds. behind and losing pace. I drew down on the perp and yelled "get on the ground M.F." a couple of times and he paused. The officer caught up some as the perp paused and the cop yelled "get down or he is going to shoot you". The enormous perp gets on the ground and begs "please don't shoot me, please!" The officer finally gets there and starts cuffing him while huffing and puffing "thank you..thank you" I don't know what this little 145 pound rookie cop would have done if I wouldn't have been there. He apparently thought the cop wouldn't shoot him, but he sure as hell wasn't sure about me. This is a memory I laugh about everytime I think about it. Cops...hehehehe
 
Very doubtful, considering YOU STARTED the altercation. Now a guy that was trying to steal a car is dead. He wasn't armed, he wasn't holding anybody up, you shot him period. That's what the prosection is going to say infront of the jury. The law isn't so cut and dry, your life is going to be in the hands of 12 people. You could have retreated, easily. You didn't even have to retreat because you weren't being threatened in the first place. You choose to involve yourself in a situation which you engaged. Jesus, where did you guys get your ccw permits at?
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We get our CCW permits from educated people -- like lawyers. People who know the law and what they're talking about.

As to whether a headlock is considered lethal force as another poster stated ... I don't know. But the cop who takes the guy in isn't going to care, and since the car thief is sitting there alive and unharmed I'm not worried about what a Colorado jury or DA will do (your state may be different).

In terms of this reply ... everything I said was correct. There is NO DUTY TO RETREAT in Colorado. You ARE allowed to used physical force to protect private property. If you are using LEGAL physical force to protect your property and the BG gets the upper hand and/or produces a weapon and you are in fear for your life, you can respond with deadly force and NOT be considered the one beginning the altercation.

Colorado is not a state that has totally neutered its citizens and left them incapable of protecting ourselves or our property. Of course we can't just pull out a gun and start blazing away at car thieves, but if physically able we can stop them.

Now ... if you try to take someone down and get your butt whupped, even if he's robbing your car, I'd guess you'd be unlikely to get a successful assault charge on him. But that's just a guess.
 
Very doubtful, considering YOU STARTED the altercation. Now a guy that was trying to steal a car is dead. He wasn't armed, he wasn't holding anybody up, you shot him period. That's what the prosection is going to say infront of the jury.
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No. HE started it by violating me or my neighbor by trying to steal my or their property. Property IS worth risking your life for. You spent part of your life working for it, to pay for it, it cost you time, money, effort. Property of any kind is part of the fruit of your labor which you have the right to enjoy. When the criminal trys to steal it, he is violating your life and liberty.

As for calling the police, that is absurd. YOU are there now and have the means to stop him from commencing his act. By the time the police get there, that car and the BG are gone. They may NEVER get it back. They may find him and he may give them a chase putting dozens of other people in danger (including the officers). All of this would have been avoided if the problem (The problem being the Bad Guy) had been stopped right then and there before he was allowed to escape.

Going back to the cocking the revolver, I agree it is probably (alright definately) not a good idea to approach the criminal. But if I HAD to for whatever reason I am talking about cocking the gun and keeping my finger inside the trigger guard away from the trigger AND holding the hammer down with my thumb. That way, even if my nervous finger works its way to the other side of the guard to put enough pressure on the cocked trigger, I still have my thumb or forethumb holding down the hammer.
Why do this? Well, if for whatever reason (YES I am making this up, this is not a true story, it is a hypothetical situation. No it is not a SAA) if I should have to be within 5 feet of the BG it would keep him from being able to grab the gun and keep the cylinder from rotating preventing me from firing the gun. If the gun is cocked and hammer held down, I don't need to worry about the cylinder rotating, I just need to slip my thumb away from the hammer and BAM, I stop the gun struggle with a bullet in BG's chest.

Automatics are cocked when they are ready to go. You wouldn't approach a bad guy with a 1911 that was uncocked :eek: . Most other automatics are single action only when they are ready to fire. (excepting Sigs and Berrettas) Only differences is you can't really keep a hold of their hammer with your thumb. All you can do is keep your finger off the trigger. (which you should do until you're ready to fire) Seems to me an auto would be even more dangerous if it is that dangerous to cock the gun.
 
Amen..Doug..which is why I railed so badly on the law and it's unbalanced view towards the victim and the criminal....changes are needed..
 
No. HE started it by violating me or my neighbor by trying to steal my or their property. Property IS worth risking your life for. You spent part of your life working for it, to pay for it, it cost you time, money, effort. Property of any kind is part of the fruit of your labor which you have the right to enjoy. When the criminal trys to steal it, he is violating your life and liberty.
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No, he didn't. Stealing the car isn't an altercation between 2 people. You going over there and engaging him is the altercation. A altercation requires 2 people, not a person and a car. If you think your life is worth risking for a 10 thousand dollar car I feel really bad for you. Lets just say the car is worth 10 grand, that's about a months pay for most successful people. You're telling me that a 70+ years worth of life is worth giving up for a months pay? I hope you're not older than 14 or 15 with that kind of logic and reasoning. I'm just waiting for one of you cowboys to get into one of these situations and see what happens when you bend the law and use a ccw permit as it wasn't intended to be used.

Hold the bg at gun point until the police arrive, fine-nothing wrong with that. However, it something happens and you end up shooting a unarmed person that wasn't in your home you're in for some serious ****. What are you going to say in the court room? Um, he was trying to steal my neighbors car, and he attacked me so I shot him. Says who? Where are your witnesses? Can you prove he attacked you? If you're a male then being attacked by fists isn't considered serious bodily harm or death. It's your word against the prosecutors. In case you didn't know- in court you're not just pleading your case, there is an oppostion trying to make you look as guilty as possible.

The original point is if you're willing to kill someone and then risk going to prison over a honda accord then you're a moron. Nobody was being threatened in the first place, nobody. You created the dangerous situation by choosing to involve yourself in it.
 
No, he didn't. Stealing the car isn't an altercation between 2 people.
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It is when he is stealing a car that doesn't belong to him. If nothing else, HIM doing this will cause the owner of that car to go over there and say "what's the problem." HE has caused the altercation
 
When you go over to challenge him, he shoots you while you are flapping your righteous gums.

You want to get into a wrestling match and get stabbed in the guts or your arm slashed open when contact starts.

I thank those like JohnKSA and others for their reasonable responses.

This thread also highlights the need that one needs serious training and some FOF experience. We have a great number of autodidactic tacticians and legal experts. They plan fantasy battles where all their head shots are true and lethat. The bad guy just stands there and gets shot or immediately complies.

Oh, well :rolleyes:
 
Doug, the starter of this thread said he wasn't the owner of the car. He is trying to defend someone elses property with deadly force which is plain stupidity-especially since there was nobody in the car being forced out it was just parked in the driveway.
 
One point no one seems to be mentioning, the BG you see commiting the act is most likely NOT alone when you are approaching him, or even staring a hole into his back from ten feet away with him at GP, his buddy aiming at you with a stolen gun from behind a a car out of your sight. Bottom line: be aware of your surroundings at all times. Also I read many people saying why risk your life, or possible legal trouble just to defend property, especially if its "not even yours". Well if you don't understand why, I cannot explain it to you, but I hope my friends and neighbors don't feel the same way.
 
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