Savage Muzzlerloaders?

No reason to shoot smokeless. Why do you shoot smokeless? Just so you dont have to clean it that night or maybe a few days later?
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Gun A requires frequent cleaning to remove the corrosive powder and your groups are great.

Gun B also shoots great groups, but does NOT require frequent cleaning due to the non-corrosive nature of the powder.

Somehow you're arguing that Gun A is better? You are quite the spin doctor. Are you a politician? Be honest! Or am I wrong and you are conceding that smokeless (Gun B) is better as far as cleaning goes? I think you are, but are having a hard time doing it.

I have a wife, 3 kids and a full time job, I'll take a wild stab and say you probably are MUCH younger (20's maybe?), don't have a family, or at least not a large one. Therefore you are are happy spending countless hours cleaning your bp rifles. Well, good for you. I have better things to do...like SHOOT my rifle, preferably at deer. You keep cleaning, I'll spend what little free time I have away from my family shooting. Do I keep my guns clean? Not that it has any relevance to this discussion, but I absolutely do. Cleaning is not the purpose of the gun and shooting, it's a nasty side-effect of the fun part. And the non-corrosive nature of MODERN smokeless powder keeps me from having to clean every time I shoot. What a relief! And that's a bad thing? Ha! Spin Doctor.

The Savage smokeless is safe and you know it. There is NO unbiased evidence WHATSOEVER that indicates otherwise. Do you believe the Hummer is more "Green" than a Prius? I'm guessing you do, as apparently a picture or an article on the web is all it takes to convince you of almost anything, and there's one running around that tries to make that argument. I have a bridge to sell you...let me post the article...

So, thanks for using this forum as an opportunity to brag about your groups, but it does nothing to prove BP is better than smokeless. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Do you get that? I'm not sure you do, since you continue to avoid arguing FACTS and continue to argue...how great your groups are. Congratulations! We're all proud of you.

You seem to forget that we're not trying to convince you to sell all of your beloved BP rifles and run out and buy a Savage. What sense would that make? If I had a serious investment in BP and had several nice loads worked up, I wouldn't change either. Too expensive. What I'm trying to argue (and what the OP asked) is if you do not have a muzzleloader, or are looking to buy a new one, which one should you buy? Are the Savage Muzzleloaders any good? I would argue that there is no argument, which you have proven quite nicely. The Savage smokeless wins hands down. UNLESS it's too expensive, laws require you use smokeless, or your a purist. I think I already said that several posts ago. Thank you for helping to prove my argument. Even you, as adamant as you are have been unable to come up with any reason to go BP, other than the 3 reasons I posted.

I can tell you that having shot smokeless and having watched others shoot and CLEAN and CLEAN and CLEAN their BP rifles, I have zero interest in them and will never buy one unless the law requires that I do so. I am in NY, it could happen...

Oh, and I could blow up a BP rifle too if I tried. Wanna give me one of yours so I can prove it? I promise to take pix and post them on the web! :-)

Zhe Wiz
 
This has been an interesting thread and has about run it's course. Neither side has convinced. or will ever convince the other that their choice of powder/rifle/bullet/primer/sight/wiping stick, or buttplate is better than someone elses. They are different and are used by different folks for different reasons.

Get over it.

FM
 
Fingers McGee said:
Neither side has convinced. or will ever convince the other that their choice of powder/rifle/bullet/primer/sight/wiping stick, or buttplate is better than someone elses. They are different and are used by different folks for different reasons.
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The point is not to convince FrontierGander or anyone else who is already shooting black powder.

The point is to ACCURATELY answer the OP, which was:

roger1shot said:
My brother is thinking about buying a Savage Muzzlerloader either a 10ML Or a 10ML-ll.
What's the good and bad on these Savage Muzzlerloaders?
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What we are doing is countering bad information for some one who may not know better.
We speak with facts, not bias. We counter the bias with facts.
We have, in fact, pointed out the negatives of the Savage, which are few, and spent most of the thread countering inaccurate information.

I couldn't care less what gun ANYONE shoots or what they choose to shoot out of that gun. I do care that the OP gets accurate information.
 
more info please

One of those is N110, but a lot of people use N120 which is not listed.
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What were the others?
I'm not at all familiar with Vihtavouri powders. What form does N110 take and N120?
I'm just curious. Surely there must be some guidelines as to relative burn rate; we are essentially assembling a cartridge every time we load a Mler. Not every smokeless powder will do for round ball and the variety of weights available for bullets that the gun can shoot.
Pete
 
Whoa!

Thanks for the link.
Those are some serious loads. 65 grains of H4198 duplexed with 10 grains of the Vihtavouri N110.

Do we know why duplexing is necessary with a relatively fast rifle powder like 4198? I understand that shooters are using these loads but they do violate the normal caution about mixing smokeless propellants.
Now I am REALLY curious.

Just downloaded the 10ML ii manual. I see that the other powders listed, in addition, to N110 are the reliable smokeless replacements for BP cartridges - SR 4759 and XMR-5744.
I also see that Savage has "strictly prohibited" duplex loads.
hmmm.
Pete
 
Do we know why duplexing is necessary with a relatively fast rifle powder like 4198?
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I'm new to muzzleloading and have only owned the Savage for about a year now...actually I think it arrived the day before Christmas last year. I haven't had much time to experiment with loads. I use 58 grains of N120 behind a 300 grain Barnes Original bullet. I like the ballistics of that load, and have had good accuracy with it, though I still need to tweak it a bit. Bottom line, I don't know why duplexing is necessary with 4198 and others, or why people are doing it. I haven't researched.

I have little time to experiment, and duplexing seems like a time consuming project, and one you don't want to mess up. I'm a hunter, not a shooter, and the thought of trying to quickly pour a single charge down the barrel and shove a bullet in seems too slow, I can't imagine needing to pour TWO charges down the barrel when you're in a hurry! Seems unnecessary for the hunting I do. The load I use is pretty good, and there's lots of ballistic info posted at various sites about it.

I'll experiment with a lighter bullet with a single propellant before I start messing (if I EVER do) with duplex loads.

I also see that Savage has "strictly prohibited" duplex loads.
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Savage is covering their backside. :-) They have several solid, if simplistic, loads listed that work and are well within safe boundaries. Whether it's engines or guns, we always have to push the boundaries. Still, the loads listed in the links above are pretty tame compared to what people are doing and NOT publishing, so I wouldn't be concerned safety-wise with any of those loads.

Jack
 
peetzakilla; Reply #43 +1

"We" constantly get off track and of little or no help to the OP's concerns. After awhile, he must just sit back and watch the tires spin. Kind of figured where this was going and as usual, not disappointed. ... :rolleyes:

" I never tell a man what to do with his money or his wife"

Be Safe !!!
 
In answer to your question roger, the advantages to the Savage have been pretty much covered, and there really are No dis-advantages. I will suggest that your brother put his hands on one that he wants, and don't just order it from a dealer without actually feeling the gun first.
The reason for this, is the accu-trigger. If your hands are small, as mine are, you will find that the trigger must be pulled exactly straight, or the gun will not fire (This is a safety feature) and must be re-cocked. If your hands are small, it is very hard to get your finger into the trigger guard perfectly, because of the thickness of the stock. If you have larger hands, this is no problem. I had no problem with it at the range, where I had plenty of time to make sure I was in the trigger perfectly. It was a nightmare when I hunted with the rifle, because not every shot you get will give you plenty of time to get situated just right. After having the rifle for about a month, I remedied my problem by putting in a competition trigger from Sharp Shooters, and got rid of the accu-trigger. There isn't anything wrong with the accu-trigger other than my hands not being big enough to keep it firing dependable.
This is the ONLY thing I have found about the Savage that was a problem however, and I love everything else about the rifle. It is a little heavy, but so accurate, I will carry it with a dolly if I have to.

Don't believe all the crap you hear about the rifle blowing up. I know at least 10 guys here that own one, and none of them have had any problems with any kind of weakness in the rifle. Some of these guys shoot all kinds of different powder and loads. I personally stay with what savage recommends and will continue to do so.
 
tempted

I must admit to being very tempted, though my taste in MLers is normally very traditional.
Whether it's engines or guns, we always have to push the boundaries.
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No we don't. At least I don't...as long as a recommended load works I'm happy. I appreciate that Savage is covering their butt - they may have good reason to do so given the possibilities for disaster.
none of them have had any problems with any kind of weakness in the rifle. Some of these guys shoot all kinds of different powder and loads. I personally stay with what savage recommends and will continue to do so.
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My first thought about those fellows not having any problems was "yet". I don't wish anyone ill but you only have to be wrong once and pressure issues are cumulative in many cases. I trust that Savage knows their gun and 4759 and 5744 are well-behaved.
Pete
I like that electric ignition MLer, too.
 
Whether it's engines or guns, we always have to push the boundaries.
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No we don't. At least I don't...as long as a recommended load works I'm happy. I appreciate that Savage is covering their butt - they may have good reason to do so given the possibilities for disaster.
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Well, I didn't mean "we" as in "me and you". I meant "we" as in "the human race". Everywhere you look, that "we" are pushing the boundaries. I admit to having done it with engines, but I don't do it with guns either.

Zhe Wiz
 
I wish Colorado would let us use smokeless Powder

I wish Colorado would let us use smokeless Powder in our Savage MLII
 
no it is in the state regs ONLY black powder or substitutes and ONLY loose

no it is in the state regs ONLY black powder or substitutes and ONLY loose
 
yeah but during rifle season, your savage with smokeless and sabots and scopes are legal. Just cant use smokeless during muzzleloading season.
 
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